SAM evasion practice

[GGTharos]

Anything INTO the missile in in-plane.

[Sinky]

I see, my experience in F4 when 2 seconds from impact pulling up = death, down = death and pulling away was also death. Only last ditch that worked for me was the one in the video.

 

Edit: Instead of me babbling on about thing's I will give them all a test in the next few hours and report back with what works.

[GGTharos]

Who says F4 is totally completely realistic? ;)

 

Not that other sims are. The proper last ditch maneuver is an orthogonal roll. Missile on the beam, hard up/down (your pick) at the right time with the wing always pointed right at the missile.

[sobek]

Beam it, then pull out of it's plane of motion at the last moment.

 

What do you mean by plane of motion? Motion has only one dimension, not two?!

[GGTharos]

Once you force the missile into a turn you establish a plane of motion, seeker deflection etc. Now if you pull out of that you indude everything bad that you can do to a missile. ;)

 

What do you mean by plane of motion? Motion has only one dimension, not two?!

[aaron886]

I think he's trying to refer to what would be the horizontal plane, in most situations.

[sobek]

I think he's trying to refer to what would be the horizontal plane, in most situations.

 

No, see below.

 

Once you force the missile into a turn you establish a plane of motion, seeker deflection etc. Now if you pull out of that you indude everything bad that you can do to a missile. ;)

 

So what you are basically saying is you should constantly force it to change it's turn direction?

[Bushmanni]

What do recent missiles have that older ones don't that makes the into-the-missile dodge not work against them but orthogonal roll still works? I wouldn't classify it as a last ditch as you need some time to complete the turn in order for it to work. Into-the-missile needs quite precise timing which might be hard to accomplish but the maneuver problem it poses requires more g for the missile to pull than orthogonal roll which is more about bleeding energy. Are recent missiles able to pull so much g that you simply can't maneuver aircraft so hard that the missile can't cope? At least against SA-9 I could easily dodge the missile by turning into it and it would go by far and wide.

[GGTharos]

Yes, thus why you'd keep it on the beam. Incidentally, it makes it seriously waste speed, which is a double whammie against the missile.

 

Then once you maneuver out of plane you also force worse seeker settling issues. By keeping the wing pointed at it you reduce the area the warhead can hit, and possibly even the detectable area for the target detector (ie. the proximity fuze)

 

So what you are basically saying is you should constantly force it to change it's turn direction?

[GGTharos]

What do recent missiles have that older ones don't that makes the into-the-missile dodge not work against them but orthogonal roll still works?

 

Available g and homing optimizations.

 

I wouldn't classify it as a last ditch as you need some time to complete the turn in order for it to work.

The orthogonal roll IS the last ditch. Your notch/countermeasures/whatever else has not worked and it's time for the last hurrah.

 

Into-the-missile needs quite precise timing which might be hard to accomplish but the maneuver problem it poses requires more g for the missile to pull than orthogonal roll which is more about bleeding energy.

Not particularly correct. By pulling tighter the ONLY thing you do is force it to pull more g than it was already pulling. By pulling orthogonally you force it to change direction which is harder to do. By turning into the missile you're also giving it better doppler and a nicer view of a target for the target detector, as well as maximum possible area for warhead impact.

 

Are recent missiles able to pull so much g that you simply can't maneuver aircraft so hard that the missile can't cope? At least against SA-9 I could easily dodge the missile by turning into it and it would go by far and wide.

Depends on the target, and depends on the missile speed when the missile is homing. Modern missiles can pull upwards of 50g's, which trasnlates to a target maneuver of about 10g.

 

The only reason you can do all that in flight sims reliably is because missile seekers aren't modeled quite up to snuff.

[Zeke]

Great discussion so far! One thing I really like messing with in these sims is how to defeat the missiles in each system. Been doing that a lot lately and it appears that if you keep them on the edge of their max range they can be defeated very easy, in fact I haven't been hit once this way just diving and keeping the missile on my 3/9 line. One time was real, real close but I pulled up and into the missile at the last second and it went right under my jet.

 

I guess the biggest thing is to not get surprised by a shot, be ready to react quickly. Also, semi and auto modes didn't work out to great, I did everything in man mode.

[sobek]

Not particularly correct. By pulling tighter the ONLY thing you do is force it to pull more g than it was already pulling. By pulling orthogonally you force it to change direction which is harder to do.

 

Isn't the orthogonal pull forcing the missile to turn hardest for any given g, anyway? Or am i mistaken in my thought?

[Bushmanni]

I did some testing and proved for myself the orthogonal rolling to be the most effective way to outmaneuver a missile. It was actually the only method I could use to simply outmaneuver a missile without jammers and decoys. While it didn't force the missile to really pull g it made them lag a little behind my movements and eventually miss. Turning into the missile made it pull g in a similar fashion but it would still keep up with my maneuvers and hit me. As the A-10 can't really loop or keep up it's energy while turning I did split-S repeatedly until in the deck and then flew away under the radars minimum altitude.

 

I tested SA-15, SA-9 and SA-11. SA-15 was the only one that I couldn't reliably outmaneuver as it wouldn't aim for the estimated meeting point but somewhere between it and my aircraft thus keeping some space to maneuver if I changed my mind and went another direction. SA-9 was the most maneuverable but it would try to aim for the meeting point which means big lead and when I changed direction the missile had to make a very big hard turn which it couldn't do.

[KVNY]

Kind of a noobish question, but how do you activate the jammer in manual CMS mode?

[GGTharos]

It'll do a whole bunch of things to the missile, including the hardest possible pull.

 

You're also changing AoA direction.

 

Isn't the orthogonal pull forcing the missile to turn hardest for any given g, anyway? Or am i mistaken in my thought?

[GGTharos]

Glad you found it to work for you. No need for a complete split-S, but if that helps :)

 

I did some testing and proved for myself the orthogonal rolling to be the most effective way to outmaneuver a missile. It was actually the only method I could use to simply outmaneuver a missile without jammers and decoys. While it didn't force the missile to really pull g it made them lag a little behind my movements and eventually miss. Turning into the missile made it pull g in a similar fashion but it would still keep up with my maneuvers and hit me. As the A-10 can't really loop or keep up it's energy while turning I did split-S repeatedly until in the deck and then flew away under the radars minimum altitude.

 

I tested SA-15, SA-9 and SA-11. SA-15 was the only one that I couldn't reliably outmaneuver as it wouldn't aim for the estimated meeting point but somewhere between it and my aircraft thus keeping some space to maneuver if I changed my mind and went another direction. SA-9 was the most maneuverable but it would try to aim for the meeting point which means big lead and when I changed direction the missile had to make a very big hard turn which it couldn't do.

[GGTharos]

CMS switch PUSH IN.

 

Kind of a noobish question, but how do you activate the jammer in manual CMS mode?

[Bushmanni]

Isn't the orthogonal pull forcing the missile to turn hardest for any given g, anyway? Or am i mistaken in my thought?

 

Missile aims for a point in space ahead of its target and the most effective maneuver to defeat a missile would be the one that makes the aiming points motion in the seekers field of view the fastest. I would think this would happen when you turn in to the missile. The aimpoint is closer to the missile when you turn in to the missile making it's angular movement greater compared if you would turn away from the missile. Imagine a merry-go-round. Do the horses seem to move faster on the near or the far side? The nearer you get the carousel more apparent the speed difference gets. The aircraft would be in the center of the merry-go-round and the the horse would be the missiles aiming point. By turning in to the missile at the last possible moment where you still can reverse your heading before missile impacts you could make it turn a bit harder than by turning orthogonally. In BS the AI pilots dodge Hellfires very effectively with this method.

 

If the missile is very fast or the aircraft very slow this wouldn't work as the lead the missile needs is pretty short and the additional movement of the aiming point would be negligible compared to the orthogonal turn. My tests showed the A-10 is just too slow to purely out turn any missile as the maximum g I was able to make the SA-15 missiles turn was 3-4g which they handled like it was nothing.

[Sinky]

Who says F4 is totally completely realistic? ;)

 

Not that other sims are. The proper last ditch maneuver is an orthogonal roll. Missile on the beam, hard up/down (your pick) at the right time with the wing always pointed right at the missile.

 

I never said it was realistic ;). I understand what your saying now. I will be doing my testing when I manage to sort my loading times out, takes me over 5 minutes to load into a mission in the new patch and it would take all week to keep reloading and trying methods.

[GGTharos]

Make your A-10 invincible so you can be launched on multiple times. :)

[Sinky]

Make your A-10 invincible so you can be launched on multiple times. :)

 

Must have left my brain on the pillow. :thumbup:

[Bushmanni]

It seems the launching parameters for SAM have been adjusted at some point as I wasn't able to outrun SA-9 or SA-15 anymore like I used to. They will wait for you to get closer than in Beta 4 when I was last time testing SAM evasion. Outrunning SA-11 was still succesfull even though it also waited me to get well within its range before launching.

[Bushmanni]

Did some more testing as I realized my turn-into-the-missile evasion wasn't done properly. When done right I was able to dodge SA-9 with a very clear margin and actually made the missile break lock in one instance. With orthogonal roll I was barely missing them. The problem was that with each dodge I got closer to the SAM and ended up circling over it with it still having one missile left and me not having enough room to turn in for a gun kill. When I tried that I got far enough for it to shoot the last missile at me. With SA-15 I got always hit as it just won't start the turning game with me but gracefully guides in with minimal g regardless how much I pull.

 

The mistake I made with my turn-into-missile method was to try to reverse my heading before impact but the proper method is to have just turned nose past the missile at impact when the angular motion of missiles aiming point is the greatest.

[lobo]

I never said it was realistic ;). I understand what your saying now. I will be doing my testing when I manage to sort my loading times out, takes me over 5 minutes to load into a mission in the new patch and it would take all week to keep reloading and trying methods.

 

Check out this thread: did wonders for my loading time

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1167923&highlight=Change+line+73%2C74+C%3A%5CProgram+Files%5CEagle+Dynamics%5CDCS+NOTEPAD#post1167923

 

We now resume our previously scheduled program on SAM EVASION. ;)

Edited April 9, 2011 by lobo**
I was going off topic so far it was unbeleivable. Had to reel myself back in. Sorry.

[GGTharos]

Simulation issue. Some older missiles can be vulnerable to this (not very maneuverable or old guidance system, or both), but in general - not way you want to learn missile evasion. Bad habit.

 

Did some more testing as I realized my turn-into-the-missile evasion wasn't done properly. When done right I was able to dodge SA-9 with a very clear margin and actually made the missile break lock in one instance. With orthogonal roll I was barely missing them. The problem was that with each dodge I got closer to the SAM and ended up circling over it with it still having one missile left and me not having enough room to turn in for a gun kill. When I tried that I got far enough for it to shoot the last missile at me. With SA-15 I got always hit as it just won't start the turning game with me but gracefully guides in with minimal g regardless how much I pull.

 

The mistake I made with my turn-into-missile method was to try to reverse my heading before impact but the proper method is to have just turned nose past the missile at impact when the angular motion of missiles aiming point is the greatest.