Stationary ground unit groups now start moving after being hit- explanation and fix

[Speed]

So it looks like with 1.1.0.8, many missions are being borked or at least complicated because after being attacked, stationary groups are starting to move a little bit. The reason for this is ED changed ground unit AI to try to disperse under fire even when the ground unit group is stationary. As a whole, this isn't a bad change, but mission makers need to be aware of it! Your SAM/AAA/Tank group you spent hours placing is now going to start moving after any one of them is hit. They might even move into the middle of a forest and be virtually invisible- I've seen this occur in a few missions I have flown. Or they might move so that they expose their rear armor to the approaching enemy tanks- also very bad!

 

Dispersal under fire defaults to true and enabled, but you can turn it off! So to fix this issue, IF it is an issue for the mission you are working on, what you have to do is to either:

a) Create an Advanced Waypoint Action of type "Set Option-> Dispersal under fire = false" for the waypoint after which you want the group not to disperse under fire. For a group that is always stationary, that waypoint would be by necessity, their waypoint 0.

 

b) Create a triggered action of type "Set Option-> Dispersal under fire = false" for that unit group, and call that triggered action with the AI TASK() trigger action (note that a trigger action and a triggered action are completely different things!!!).

 

Anyway, after disabling dispersal under fire, the "stationary" group will no longer re position itself into retarded or unfair positions when coming under fire from aircraft.

 

Here is a quick mission that illustrates the difference. The first group at waypoint 1 has Dispersal under fire defaulted to true. You hit them with a maverick, and they move. The second group of tanks at waypoint 2, I have set Dispersal under fire to false via an advanced waypoint action for that unit group. Hit them with a maverick, they remain stationary.

 

BTW, making Dispersal under fire false for a moving group means they won't pull off the road, put the tank in park, and wait to die via CBU attack after they get attacked. IMO, it is more realistic to have the ground forces just ignore fire from enemy aircraft and keep on chugging down the road, rather than to pull off road and erect a giant "PLEASE KILL ME!!!!" sign.

disperse under fire test.miz

Edited June 15, 2011 by Speed

[Grimes]

They don't move back to their starting position once the attack is over, like they would if they had waypoints?

[cichlidfan]

They don't move back to their starting position once the attack is over, like they would if they had waypoints?

 

My only ME use so far is setting up practice type missions and when they move it is usually a random direction, away from direction of fire though, and not far, less than 100', and they don't move back.

Edited June 15, 2011 by cichlidfan

[MadTommy]

I think this disperse under fire for stationary units is a great addition, especially if they do go hide in a forest! I used to try and force disperse under fire on... now i don't have too. It's just a shame they do not move a little further.

 

But as you said if you need them to stay still the above method works. :) (poor AI!! left to be sitting ducks!)

[sungsam]

I personally like this run to hide / evassive behaviour !

[miguelaco]

Well I think this dispersal under fire thing is not very challenging, specially for movers. Once you hit the first vehicle, they disperse and stop. Way to easy to locate the remaining targets with TGP since they don't go too far.

 

Also, as default value is true, it changes all missions already created and we are forced to review them so they work as expected. Perhaps ED should have set dispersal under fire = false by default. This way we have the new option without affecting previous missions.

[Speed]

I think this disperse under fire for stationary units is a great addition, especially if they do go hide in a forest! I used to try and force disperse under fire on... now i don't have too. It's just a shame they do not move a little further.

 

But as you said if you need them to stay still the above method works. :) (poor AI!! left to be sitting ducks!)

 

I personally like this run to hide / evassive behaviour !

 

Agreed with both, as I said, this isn't a bad change. It's a good change in fact, now we have even more capabilities as mission designers. We can have stationary groups that run around and disperse a little as they are attacked.

 

But, there are many situations where you want the group to stay stationary and not move. If you spent hours getting an enemy air defense units placed in the middle of clearings or special spots in a town, do you want them driving into thick trees where they can shoot at the player with impunity after, like, their Zeus bro in another spot of town gets blown up? I certainly don't want the tanks I carefully placed in a defensive formation in some of my missions to start moving after being hit by aircraft.

 

It would be great if disperse under fire really meant disperse under fire, where the group would really truely break up and take different paths miles apart from each other, and only form up again like an hour later, but without a large upgrade to ground unit AI and path finding, I guess this is the best ED could give us. Furthermore, they need to give us even finer control of the AI if they were to implement something like that.

Edited June 15, 2011 by Speed

[Speed]

Well I think this dispersal under fire thing is not very challenging, specially for movers. Once you hit the first vehicle, they disperse and stop. Way to easy to locate the remaining targets with TGP since they don't go too far.

 

I think it's usually quite bad for movers. In all my missions that contain moving convoys, I have never once that I can rememver left Disperse under fire on- I ALWAYS turn it off. I find it very unrealistic to have the enemy tanks, once one is hit, just pull 30 meters off road and wait to be annihilated. Stationary targets are MUCH easier to kill than movers.

[calys]

I think it's usually quite bad for movers. In all my missions that contain moving convoys, I have never once that I can rememver left Disperse under fire on- I ALWAYS turn it off. I find it very unrealistic to have the enemy tanks, once one is hit, just pull 30 meters off road and wait to be annihilated. Stationary targets are MUCH easier to kill than movers.

 

Quote!

Thank you very much for info this leak!

Edited June 15, 2011 by calys

[Nate--IRL--]

I think it's usually quite bad for movers. In all my missions that contain moving convoys, I have never once that I can rememver left Disperse under fire on- I ALWAYS turn it off. I find it very unrealistic to have the enemy tanks, once one is hit, just pull 30 meters off road and wait to be annihilated. Stationary targets are MUCH easier to kill than movers.

 

Good point - switching to a random "Dispersed" Formation would be a better way to implement it IMHO.

 

Nate

[Speed]

Good point - switching to a random "Dispersed" Formation would be a better way to implement it IMHO.

 

Nate

 

OMFG that is an AWESOME idea. You can set custom formations- when a unit gets hit, you can use triggered actions so that they attempt to assume a custom formation where the units are scattered to all different areas on the map, like, hundreds of kms away!!!!!!!!! Then later, after some time, use triggered actions to change the formation back to regular old, on road or line abreast or whatever. Something. I have GOT to try this this evening! I should work just fine!

 

In case you guys didn't follow, do this:

 

(Note: this may not work with groups that are travelling on road)

 

Create a group you want to wildly disperse after coming under attack. At their waypoint 0, set "disperse under fire" to false.

 

 

Create another group, with at least as many units as the first. It could be 40, 50, whatever. This will be your custom formation template group. Name the group, "Dispersal formation". Now, drag the units of that group all over the map, widely dispersed by many kilometers, even hundreds of kilometers. Now set that group's start time to like, a month in the future, and hide it.

 

Next, create a triggered action for the group that you want to actually disperse. Make that triggered action of type "Set Option"->"Set Formation", and then, select Custom formation. Now that you have selected a custom formation, select the "Dispersal formation" group you created and hid. This selects the Dispersal group's initial, starting positions as the custom formation that the units will try to assume. Next, create a second triggered action of the same type, except make the formation the formation the group was holding BEFORE being attacked.

 

Now go into your trigger list, and create Once-type triggers that set a certain flag to true when any one of the units in your group dies. Next, you create a "time since flag" switched trigger on that certain flag you set each time a unit died, and if the time since flag exceeds, like, 30 minutes, then you make it turn the flag off.

 

Finally, make two other switched triggers. For the first, have the conditions be that certain flag is true, and the actions of the trigger be AI TASK(Set Formation- Custom dispersal formation). The other trigger should be switched, conditions being that certain flag false, actions being AI task (Set Formation- non-dispersed formation (whatever it is)).

 

Now units should disperse and scatter all over the place, driving many kms out of their way after being attacked, and keep scattering if you keep attacking them, but eventually come back together if they have been left alone for like, 30 minutes.

 

I can't see why this wouldn't work, unless custom formations are limited to total spreads of less than like, a few kilometers.

 

Assuming it works, I'm SO going to make a quick mission that utilizes this effect! Of course, that's what I said last time about something else, and the mission ending up taking like 100 hours of work to complete.

[Nate--IRL--]

Interesting - I hope it works - however I wouldn't have them scattering KMS away. I'd make them form a looser disjointed formation that would still travel as a group but make then more difficult to spot, especially through towns.

 

Nate

[Speed]

Interesting - I hope it works - however I wouldn't have them scattering KMS away. I'd make them form a looser disjointed formation that would still travel as a group but make then more difficult to spot, especially through towns.

 

Nate

 

The beauty is you could go for anything in between utter panic and chaos, to simply a wider formation that is more resistant to air attacks. I'm probably going to end up making a second "surprise attack" mission similar to Intervention Prevention that utilizes the utter chaos and panic factor :) One mission concept would be that you gotta kill as much as possible before they scatter everywhere.

[Druid_]

Yep, but in reality they would scatter and find somewhere sensible to hide.

 

Would it not be better to have.. on unit damaged switch waypoint & have a bunch of waypoints in sensible hiding areas. On reaching said area you could also set them up in a predermined defensive formation that utilitises buidlings, trees, cover etc for as many units in the formation as possible.

 

IRL Tanks pop smoke and look for cover, lightly armoured vehicles either make a run for it or are abandoned by the troops who then run for cover.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Druid_

[Speed]

Damnit, I forgot that set formation was only an option for air units. I'll have see if scripting will allow me to get around this limitation. :( Probably will just CTD. Oh well. Nevermind.

 

You can still have ground forces hold static positions with a hold action, then turn off that hold and have them drive to a second waypoint where their formation is the scattered one though.

[calys]

But i've a question, in the real world, when a convoy is hit, what they to do?

[Druid_]

Damnit, I forgot that set formation was only an option for air units. I'll have see if scripting will allow me to get around this limitation. :( Probably will just CTD. Oh well. Nevermind.

No need for scripting. I take it you are talking about a static formation (as moving formations are available in GUI). In which case create a template of the formation you would like them to be once static and use DEPLOY TO TEMPLATE.

 

This is what I meant in post#14 above. Once group damaged ---> deploy to template. You have created a template of the units hidden behind buildings, in trees etc

 

For fun, I created a miz with multiple unit in zone triggers surrounding a tank and at about 2 miles distant. Depending on which zone the player entered the tank would appear to turn towards the player (by deploying to template). I sent it to a mate with the message "see if you can destroy this tank with guns, its a b*tch". A lot of effort for some realism though.

[Speed]

No need for scripting. I take it you are talking about a static formation (as moving formations are available in GUI). In which case create a template of the formation you would like them to be once static and use DEPLOY TO TEMPLATE.

 

This is what I meant in post#14 above. Once group damaged ---> deploy to template. You have created a template of the units hidden behind buildings, in trees etc

 

For fun, I created a miz with multiple unit in zone triggers surrounding a tank and at about 2 miles distant. Depending on which zone the player entered the tank would appear to turn towards the player (by deploying to template). I sent it to a mate with the message "see if you can destroy this tank with guns, its a b*tch". A lot of effort for some realism though.

 

Doh, yea, I forgot that one too, even though I have actually used it in a mission or two! Anyway, it's actually "Stop and deploy to template", so the leading vehicle is going to stop, is it not?

 

Anyway, by my initial tests, ground units may have a maximum formation spread of like two miles or something... gonna keep testing though.

[Druid_]

Doh, yea, I forgot that one too, even though I have actually used it in a mission or two! Anyway, it's actually "Stop and deploy to template", so the leading vehicle is going to stop, is it not?

 

Anyway, by my initial tests, ground units may have a maximum formation spread of like two miles or something... gonna keep testing though.

yep lead vehicle will stop but if you have it set with an on damage, switch waypoint at least you can set his hiding spot at that WP exactly, the others are set as per the template.

 

2 miles is more than enough isn't it?