Approach Lights

[bluepilot76]

Can anyone confirm that the approach lights featured in the simulator are accurate? It should be drawn on a approach plate, but I havent seen any of these yet.

I find it hard to believe that they are accurate. They seem designed to cause you to undershoot and crash when in poor visibility. They seem different for every airfield as well.

[159th_Viper]

PAPI lights?

 

Functional last time I looked. Which AB's are you having issues with?

[bluepilot76]

In the most recent and memoreable incident I was approaching Senaki.

 

It is the approach lights before the runway that I have a problem with, they just seem very illogical and I would be really surprised if they are representative of an actual system in use in RL. Maybe just because I am used to western / ICAO standards though..

 

From memory...as you approach minimums you pass some red lights that are perpendicular to the runway, I think there is 3 on each side. it gives the impression you are crossing the threshold, but then there is nothing for a while, no sign of PAPIs, you are left holding your breath waiting for the runway to appear. Eventually the side lights of the runway appear, but they are much wider than the useable portion of the runway (perhaps twice as wide), causes me to flare too high every time. I am fairly sure as well that the runway edge lights start red, then orange, then white, which is the reverse of what I would expect. Normally the orange and red is at the far end to warn you that you are running out of runway.

 

I havent done a lot of instrument approaches in the sim, but every time I do I am surprised by the approach lights. Batumi is the only one that seems sensible to me, perhaps because it is civilian airfield though.

 

I realise that I am probably wrong about this, I think every country is a bit different, and no doubt military bases are also different, but I was hoping someone could prove me wrong with reference to an approach plate or some good pictures. I just dont see the logic in how they are at the moment, and think they would be too dangerous for a RL situation.

[bluepilot76]

OK Ive been replaying the track.

 

There appears to be two parallel lines of red lights on the approach to the runway (that you can hardly see in bad conditions) these are quite widely spaced so do not give a good indication of the direction to the runway.. I would suggest that it is more likely to be a single line of high intensity white lights along the approach centreline.

 

Then about 100m BEFORE the threshold there is a perpendicular line of red and green lights. This gives you the impression you have crossed the threshold, but you havent. This seems incredibly unlikely to me- very dangerous!

 

The runway lights are white (correct), but much wider than the runway markings. I suggest that it is unlikely that the runway edge lights would be any wider than the useable portion of the runway, so they should be at the same position as the runway edge markings.

 

I see no sign of PAPIs, although to be fair I was too low coming over the threshold so perhaps there were some in the touchdown zone that I didnt see because of the bad vis. I cant recall seeing any at other airfields however, except Batumi I think.

 

I must have seen the orange and red runway lights at another airfield and to be fair perhaps I was landing in the wrong direction (according to the ATC)

 

I might see if I can put a short video on YT.

[159th_Viper]

Aaahhh OK I get you now.

 

Problem is that without verification from reputable sources/RL diagrams or the like, we have to assume that they have been correctly implemented irrespective of what our common sense tells us.

 

Worth investigating though, especially if there is a chance that they have indeed been incorrectly modelled.

[bluepilot76]

Yeah I would like to see some approach plates. I had a look on google earth and there doesnt appear to be any approach lights at Senaki. In our simulation obviously the airfield has been upgraded for ongoing operations (it looks a bit derelict in GE), I would prefer it if the lights were a bit closer to ICAO standards, and maybe a bit less individuality between individual airfields within the sim, except maybe military vs civilian, or maybe differ a bit country by country.

[159th_Viper]

Yeah I would like to see some approach plates....

 

 

As a matter of interest, herewith charts for Tbilisi and Batumi:

 

 

[ATTACH]52692[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH]52693[/ATTACH]

 

 

As you said, I wonder whether Senaki is operational. Could probably get more info from here if you're willing to dig:

 

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ifim/country_list/media/poc/gg.pdf

 

 

 

 

Edit:

 

Herewith list of available charts: Seems there is only three for Georgia and Senaki is not one of them.

 

[ATTACH]52695[/ATTACH]

[BlueRidgeDx]

I'm not familiar with all the variants of approach lights that might be found in eastern Europe or Russia, but at least several runways at airports modeled in DCS have HIALS in real life (google should turn up some info on HIALS).

 

I've not seen a properly modeled HIALS in-game. As most of the approach lights appear to be a form of generic ODALS. That could be accurate...would need to check the available sources to verify.

 

From the sound of your description, you're expecting to see an ALSF-2 (US) or a CALVERT-2 (Europe) system. Each of these have the red "side row" lights you describe and each are used, in part, to allow for lower minimums (down to CATIII, even though it's name implies CATII).

 

Nellis AFB uses the ALSF-1, which is nearly identical to the ALSF-2, but without the side row lights.

[159th_Viper]

I've not seen a properly modeled HIALS in-game. As most of the approach lights appear to be a form of generic ODALS. That could be accurate...would need to check the available sources to verify....

 

If I read the charts correctly then both Tbilisi and Batumi ought to be HIALS.

[bluepilot76]

Viper, Thanks for the charts, I look forward to having a good look through them after work. I had a quick look and see the approach lighting diagrams is not displayed on the Batumi or Tibisli charts as I hoped it would be, some charts do show a little picture of what to expect. There is a description of the lighting though.

BlueRidge, you have certainly given me some acronymns to start researching there! Look forward to learning a bit more about the subject.

 

Like I said I am just convinced that they do not represent any RL lighting system , as I believe it would be too dangerous as it is. My main gripe would be the "false start" threshold marker, the too-wide runway lights, and lack of strong centreline lighting along the approach. This is for Senaki.

 

I think I might go for a long cross country flight later and document all of the different lighting systems in the sim, to see if there is any pattern.

[effte]

If you do, post screenshots of the ALS configurations and I'll have a look. I don't think I'll have time to check them in sim myself any time soon, but I do have access to the docs (being ICAO Annex 14, you may or may not be able to find it - it shouldn't be available unless you buy it but the net is the net).

[bluepilot76]

OK wilco, just in case I cant figure it out later can anyone tell me how to make a screendump.

If anyone else has some good pics of ALS then please post them!

[159th_Viper]

OK wilco, just in case I cant figure it out later can anyone tell me how to make a screendump.

 

Press the 'Printscreen' button. Screenshots are saved in your Saved Games/Screenshots folder.

[bluepilot76]

Doh! Printsceen, who would have though it! OK thanks I will try and get a couple tonight.

[bluepilot76]

OK I have been on a big loop checking out quite a lot of airfields.

I have seen at least 6 different patterns of lights...

 

The most common is the simplest pattern. This consists of a few red lights on the centreline, about 5. These lights then stop and there is a massive gap before the runway starts. I saw this at; Kobuleti, Kutaisi, Gudauta, Maykop-khanskaya, Mineralyne Vody, Nalchik. Another thing to note on these, the runway edge lights are yellow, and not very realistic looking. There is a picture of Gudauta attached.

 

The most realistic, IMO, are seen at Batumi, Tbisili, and Sukhumi. However note gap between threshold lights and runway at Sukhumi and Tbisili. All three of these are slightly different from each other. Batumi and Tbisili were the only runways with PAPI that I saw.

 

The most imaginitive and useless lights were at Senaki. I can see no logic in that pattern what so ever. Variations of this were seen at Vaziani and Soganlug.

 

As for the searchlights across the runway at Soganlug?

 

Good job I wasnt paying the fuel though.

Edited June 16, 2011 by bluepilot76