Target area too hot

[J. Heller]

I am having some trouble in some of the campaign missions with SAM's. JTAC gives approximate locations of air defenses around the target area, but this is completely useless since even if you could find the SAM sites with a Maverick the range is too short to get a shot off before multiple missles are inbound for your aircraft. It also seems like they never miss, put the SAM at 3 oclock and then executing a tight descending turn while popping chaff and flares never works, I am constantly getting hit by these things.

 

How do you handle this type of scenario? I havent looked to see if the A-10 can carry the AGM-88 HARM, this seems like the only counter to these SA-11 and SA-8 sites. Suggestions?

[Irregular programming]

It can't, don't you have a SEAD dedicated flight to deal with these?

 

 

Which campaign are we talking about?

[ilikepie]

or change the load out to include a TGP. looking for things with the mav seeker is quite hard, and as you say you wander into the range envelope while you look for targets.

 

best to fly high and stay away from trouble while you search with the TGP, mark them off when found, and then prosecute when ready.

 

No HARMS btw, and the missles do miss but if you are to close then they have to much E to counter and you buy the farm.

[Irregular programming]

In the first campaign make use of ground cover to get close to the targets. You can also fool the missiles at striking the ground if you are low enough by diving towards it.

[EtherealN]

It also seems like they never miss, put the SAM at 3 oclock and then executing a tight descending turn while popping chaff and flares never works, I am constantly getting hit by these things.

 

Sounds like you are trying to execute a look-down doppler notch. But the only way you can successfully do that is by being below the emitter (the "look-down" - it relies on getting filtered out as ground clutter). I hope you see why this might be difficult against a SAM? ;)

 

Generally speaking, do not rely on flare and chaff to save you, always try to put something between you and the launcher, or extend away while making bleed maneuvers. The AI has been made smarter though, so quite a lot of the time it'll only launch when it really has you, and in a slow plane like the A-10... You're in a rough spot.

Edited June 28, 2011 by EtherealN
Typing while reading makes for lol-errors. :D

[J. Heller]

It can't, don't you have a SEAD dedicated flight to deal with these?

 

 

Which campaign are we talking about?

 

First campaign, fourth or fifth mission in when you have to cover the retreat. I'm just going to try staying out of range of the missles and carry only Mavs to prevent JTAC from asking me to hit the targets with CBU's. You would have to go pretty high to get out of range of an SA-11, doesnt really seem feasable. Given the A-10's role you would think the AGM-88 would be standard fare on the A-10 wing...Go figure. Perhaps there is a dedicated SEAD flight and I am just beating it to the IP? It seems like the only tactic is to standoff and hope the enemy armor comes into range while the mobile SAMs remain stationary. Since once a SA-9 or 11 fires at you its pretty much a done deal I guess this is the only option.

 

What I wouldnt give for a Falcon 4 style dynamic campaign where you can see every flight tasking and know whos gonna be on your side and what their mission is... All the pretty graphics in the world cant make up for the lack of information and depth in the A-10 campaigns. If they built an engine like that they could use it for at least a decade and make it compatible with every aircraft they decide to make, all while increasing depth, realism and immersion ten-fold. One can only hope...

[J. Heller]

Sounds like you are trying to execute a look-down doppler notch. But the only way you can successfully do that is by being below the emitter (the "look-down" - it relies on getting filtered out as ground clutter). I hope you see why this might be difficult against a SAM? ;)

 

Generally speaking, do not rely on flare and chaff to save you, always try to put something between you and the launcher, or extend away while making bleed maneuvers. The AI has been made smarter though, so quite a lot of the time it'll only launch when it really has you, and in a slow plane like the A-10... You're in a rough spot.

 

Standard tactics against Russian missiles of many kinds is to put the missile perpendicular to the aircraft and pop chaff..This alone breaks the lock of many of them. Of course coming from Falcon 4 I dont really have faith that ED has modeled the various weapon systems so accurately as that sim. The problem with using terrain masking is this puts you in harms way of IR Manpads and ZSU fire. A bit more stand-off capability would be nice, but then this IS a mud punching sim more than anything. I will try the tactic of staying just outside the range of the SA-8's and see if I can stil get the job done. More suggestions are always welcome.

[EtherealN]

Standard tactics against Russian missiles of many kinds is to put the missile perpendicular to the aircraft and pop chaff..This alone breaks the lock of many of them.

 

SA-2 maybe...

 

Of course coming from Falcon 4 I dont really have faith that ED has modeled the various weapon systems so accurately as that sim.

 

Yeah, TFC/ED is only a military contractor... They can't get anything right. :P

Seriously, get over F4. People who think F4 is the god of realism really need to wake up and realise that it is not so. It's pretty good, but it's effectively an old hobby project. (No disrespect meant, some hobby projects become billion dollar industries, but most don't.)

 

The problem with using terrain masking is this puts you in harms way of IR Manpads and ZSU fire. A bit more stand-off capability would be nice, but then this IS a mud punching sim more than anything.

 

Exactly. This is NOT an F-16. This is an A-10. Do not use F-16 tactics and expect them to work.

 

I will try the tactic of staying just outside the range of the SA-8's and see if I can stil get the job done. More suggestions are always welcome.

 

SA-8 should be relatively easy to engage with mavericks, assuming you have the liberty of using some altitude. Depends on which Mav variant you are packing though. If unhappy with the weapon payloads selected for a mission, you can use the Mission Planner before hitting "Fly" to select what you prefer to have.

[J. Heller]

SA-8...I meant SA-9 and SA-11, much harder to contend with. Sorry if I go back to Falcon4 for alot of stuff, it has been THE bastion of realism in flight sims for years so its hard to break habits learned from it. Really though its the fantastic campaign engine that makes it so good. How do you handle these situations? If you loiter long anough will a friendly SEAD flight deal with the threats or is staying out of range the best option?

[Spectre_USA]

The first campaign is a real meat grinder. I finally got through it, but it took some

doing. The only tips I can offer are to stay low, don't expose yourself without a

plan to evade, and do a lot of combat quick turns at the base to replenish Mavericks.

 

I don't plan on ever flying it again.

 

The third is just plain broken. After some folks here repaired the early missions, I

made it to the last, but you can't finish it, as it is, as stated, broken.

 

We have recently been informed that the 1st and the 3rd are 3rd party, and will be

disposed of in the next patch. I just hope there is a replacement, and, hopefully,

by whoever made the second campaign. It is a true joy, in comparison.

 

You almost always have the F10 key available to call in some fast movers with

dedicated SEAD munitions, other CAS'ers, and the missions have a good flow.

Just well done.

 

They were planning on implementing a dynamic campaign in LOMAC, but that died

about 6 weeks before it went gold. It would be nice to have one here, but I would

not hold my breath...

[EtherealN]

We have recently been informed that the 1st and the 3rd are 3rd party, and will be

disposed of in the next patch.

 

The 3rd party ones will be available as downloads. They're just separated from the main distribution.

 

I just hope there is a replacement, and, hopefully, by whoever made the second campaign.

 

Wags, AFAIK. If you check the name on it you can find it in the credits list. :)

[EtherealN]

SA-8...I meant SA-9 and SA-11

 

Err, SA-9 is, in my opinion, even easier to deal with than SA-8. Don't even need altitude for that.

 

SA-11 (Бук) and SA-15 (Тор) is different though. There I usually just try to work around them either through using cover, or through engaging what I need to engage in such a way that I can attack (usually with mavericks) what I need to attack without entering the Тор or Бук WEZ.

 

When I just want to "have some lols" I try to bait them into wasting all their missiles, which can be a lot of fun if you have a hill to pop up from. Not really practical for "real" missions though, but fun. :)

 

Sorry if I go back to Falcon4 for alot of stuff, it has been THE bastion of realism in flight sims for years so its hard to break habits learned from it.

 

The issue with Falcon 4 though is that while it has pretty good systems simulation, there are many other things that - compared to DCS - totally crap. For example the physics models (flight), secondary systems simulation (hydraulics, mechanics etc) and similar problems in modeling certain units. Now, this isn't really something to be surprised by - it's a very old product with the restraints of the 90's, so it's all fair enough. But it's so easy for people to get tricked into thinking that since F4 got X right they subcounciously think it also has Y and Z right. It does a good job, but one has to wonder why people often think that Microprose of the 90's or modders and hobbyists and startups of later years would have access to better knowledge on the behaviour of SAM systems than a company that actually has contracts in the military sector. :P

[GGTharos]

Not when it comes to missiles. It does a bunch of stuff different/better than DCS does it right now, and it does a bunch of stuff worse/different than DCS does right now, too.

 

Modern SAMs can't be evaded quite so easily. Jammers help (which neither DCS or F4 model well).

 

You also don't need any type of tasking to see that the briefing tells you if you have a SEAD flight available and how to call them.

 

it has been THE bastion of realism in flight sims for years

Edited June 28, 2011 by GGTharos

[Cali]

Modeling ECM is always going to be hard and a guessing game. G14 classified

[GGTharos]

It's always going to be a guessing game, but it isn't too hard. It's complicated, but not too hard. :)

Kinda like modeling missiles.

 

The problem is that you don't know exactly what each jammer or radar will do (ie. ECM/ECCM) ... so you decide based on public knowledge which one will fare 'better', and program accordingly. Add known techniques etc as embellishment so that you can get a fairly realistic picture on your scope of how it would look like.

 

What I'm saying is: You can know jamming techniques (they're not classified) and some ECCM techniques (also not classified) and program how they'd look on a radar scope. What you don't know is what all techniques are specifically used by which set, and which one does them better. The EW side is 'unknown' ie. it could sort of work, it could work really well, or be a bust for either side in RL. Should work the same way in the game.

Edited June 28, 2011 by GGTharos

[EtherealN]

Kinda like modeling missiles.

 

Fff, but that's easy.

 

 

:D

 

Well, if they can manage a missile AFM I'll be soooo happy. :)

[bluepilot76]

YEah you can tell see the difference between C1 and C2, I was flying C2 the other day and the JTAC was really usefull, gave me the target by TAD link, then afterwards popping "willie pete", I know at night there is extensive use of laser beams, oh and he gave me a laser on a day mission too, unfortunately it is such a rare occurrence that I completely forgot what I was supposed to do. You nearly always have a SEAD and CAP flight you can call in, it just feels like a major operation, properly organised.

 

I think my Favorite is C1 though. It feels desperate, the allies have been caught on the back foot. They are taking a pounding. The JTACs are running for their lives, The CAP line is thin. You got a few German Tornados instead of American F18s providing SEAD, they are not too effective... Its got a good dynamic to it I think. A strong vibe. I used to love it with the hanger starts and dark cloudy sky.

 

The more campaigns the better, I think with isolated missions its hard to get a feel for the degree of the threat, there is not that widespread tactical awareness that comes from flying a few missions out over the battlefield, its too easy to be too complacent or too cautious. Hard to judge I think.