Fire handle - hold to pull!

[mvsgas]

The problem is that causes a flameout and an inflight restart is not something i'd want to do on a regular basis, especially since the engines now seem to take damage when they flame out at full throttle.

 

On the other hand, i've never pulled a handle on accident... :)

 

I did it once, and just press it back in and had no problems. I did it quickly. I did not sit there;" Aw no, now my will shut down, man!" I just click ,cap, click done..."DUN" :D

[Frostiken]

I agree....the T handles are very easy to pull real life as well.

 

It's an entirely different motion in 'real life' to go from pushing a button to yanking an entire handle the size of your hand. You can't do it accidentally, and if you could, I guarantee you there would've been a redesign to make sure you COULDN'T.

 

He is entitled to his opinion and voiced it - You need to relax and wind your neck in a wee bit. Consider this a fair warning

Expressing your opinion should involve more than strawman arguments and ridiculous statements that have nothing to do with the post in question. To respond with anything besides a well thought-out response is doing little more than wasting my time.

 

I am not the only one who's accidentally pulled the fire handles which are conveniently located right next to the UFC, and while rare, it's happened more than once. That is not and has never been a problem in real life so why it should be an issue in the sim when it's so easy to fix is beyond me. I'm actually not even the first person to suggest that the fire handles have a delay or some sort of minor safety built into them, this is literally not my idea, just something I thought about when I accidentally did it the other day. So saying that "it ain't broke" is like telling someone "your leg is broken? Well mine works fine so I don't believe you, stop whining".

 

It is absolutely nothing like 'accidentally firing a gun', because I don't click a mouse to do everything in real life. Also you may have missed his implication there, but he's basically saying anyone who misclicks the fire handles is clearly so stupid they would misfire a gun in real life and pretend 'it just went off'. There's no other way to interpret that.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Frostiken

[LostOblivion]

This has happened to me, what, once in all my time flying the vhog. :)

[Frostiken]

Once, yes, and it'll probably happen again. Given how simple it would be to fix it forever and would impact nobody negatively, I fail to see why not.

 

Let me use another example:

 

In-game, every time you right-click a knob, the knob rotates clockwise. When you left-click, it goes counter-clockwise. The only exceptions to this are the radio frequency knobs, which work completely opposite. This is something that should be fixed. It's wrong and inconsistent.

 

Arguing against it because you're "used to it" is incorrect, because it doesn't change the fact that it should be fixed. It took me a few times to learn that the knobs were backwards, as I'd always right-click out of habit to turn the knob clockwise and thus lower the frequency selection, when you actually have to left-click to do it (which turns the knob clockwise). This introduces a minor 'learning' element that shouldn't have to exist.

 

That the fire handles and, in fact, all other emergency handles can have catastrophic impact on your flight and will always be easy to misclick doesn't change the fact that myself and others have had this problem in the past and it could be avoided permanently in the future with an easy fix.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Frostiken

[mvsgas]

Once, yes, and it'll probably happen again. Given how simple it would be to fix it forever and would impact nobody negatively, I fail to see why not.

 

Let me use another example:

 

In-game, every time you right-click a knob, the knob rotates clockwise. When you left-click, it goes counter-clockwise. The only exceptions to this are the radio frequency knobs, which work completely opposite. This is something that should be fixed. It's wrong and inconsistent.

 

Arguing against it because you're used to it doesn't change the fact that you are incorrect for arguing against it, because just because you are used to it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong and should be fixed.

 

What's wrong about it? Inconsistent, ok but why wrong?

Edit

I guess I should elaborate.

Radio knowbs are different than the rest. they actualy have "notches"

Edited July 7, 2011 by mvsgas

[Frostiken]

What's wrong about it? Inconsistent, ok but why wrong?

 

Because it suggests that the knob is being turned the opposite direction that it really is. Regardless of whether it appears that the knob is turning the correct direction, my control interaction completely suggests that the knobs are installed backwards, that I'm in fact turning it in the wrong direction to perform the actual function.

 

I don't know if it's a MILSPEC standard but in every aircraft I've seen, all equipment control knobs have the 'safe' settings all the way to the left, usually OFF - STBY - PWR, or in the best case, countermeasures: OFF - STBY - MAN - SEMI - AUTO, because fully automated is the most dangerous condition.

 

Having the radio knobs installed backwards (which is functionally all they are in the game) is like having the radar control knob on the F-15 installed backwards, where it's the only knob in the cockpit you have to turn RIGHT to turn off, and turning it left puts it into the dangerous condition of emergency mode.

 

Radio knowbs are different than the rest. they actualy have "notches"

 

???

 

It's still fundamentally the same concept, turn left or right. The sim's action suggests they're installed backwards - thus they're wrong.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Frostiken

[Frostiken]

I also think that "dead end" switches and dials that don't spin around and around should not cycle as well. Master arm should need to be decreased twice to Train and not be possible to increase beyond Arm back down to Train without passing through safe.

 

+1

More than once I tried to get to the IFFCC menu and accidentally turned the whole system off. This was mostly when I was learning the A-10, but again, these are all things that wouldn't impact a veteran, yet ease the learning curve of the game somewhat. Even for someone who does know the jet, if it stops them from doing something stupid that you wouldn't have a problem with in real life I fail to see why it shouldn't be implemented.

 

I'll also add that aircraft are pretty idiot-proof in real life, specifically because of things like switch guards and safety stops. An example is the pod control switches in the F-15E - the switch has three positions: OFF / STBY / ON. There's a switch stop between OFF and STBY so that you have to actually lift the switch over it to turn the pod on / off. This stop inadvertent switch actuation, specifically turning the stupid pod off in-flight so you have to wait for it to time back in. There's no stop between STBY and ON because accidentally hitting the switch between these two states doesn't affect it a whole lot.

 

If this had to be done because real-life pilots could make this mistake, how stupid could those of us be who are committing the same mistakes in a game where we don't have real control of our own hands and none of these safety devices actually exist?

Edited July 7, 2011 by Frostiken

[mvsgas]

Because it suggests that the knob is being turned the opposite direction that it really is. Regardless of whether it appears that the knob is turning the correct direction, my control interaction completely suggests that the knobs are installed backwards, that I'm in fact turning it in the wrong direction to perform the actual function.

 

I don't know if it's a MILSPEC standard but in every aircraft I've seen, all equipment control knobs have the 'safe' settings all the way to the left, usually OFF - STBY - PWR, or in the best case, countermeasures: OFF - STBY - MAN - SEMI - AUTO, because fully automated is the most dangerous condition.

 

Having the radio knobs installed backwards (which is functionally all they are in the game) is like having the radar control knob on the F-15 installed backwards, where it's the only knob in the cockpit you have to turn RIGHT to turn off, and turning it left puts it into the dangerous condition of emergency mode.

 

 

 

???

 

It's still fundamentally the same concept, turn left or right. The sim's action suggests they're installed backwards - thus they're wrong.

 

I apologise, remember, I'm just a dumb mechanic, how do they apear to go backwards, just because you have to right click them? I'm not questioning your point, simply attemting to understand it.

[Frostiken]

When I was learning the sim, there were only two major control things to keep in mind:

 

When you left-click a switch, it simulates your hand flipping it up or flipping it to the left (not many of these exist...).

When you left-click a knob, it simulates your hand turning the knob counter-clockwise (ie: 'turning it left').

 

Don't think of it as how the knob is implemented, but how your 'hand' (the mouse) interacts with the cockpit. So when I saw these radio knobs, I expect to turn them left to advance the frequency. Maybe this is due to my real-life background with these kinds of things, but was an annoying hurdle I had when learning to fly without easy comms / radios as I'd always advance the frequency in the wrong direction.

 

If you put the DCS: A-10 radio in a real cockpit, the pilot would be baffled, because whenever he tried to turn it left, the frequency would go down. To me it was about as backwards as having a random switch in the cockpit work by flipping it up with a right-click instead. You're supposed to turn the knobs in a counter-clockwise direction to advance the frequency up, but they've programmed them backwards where you seemingly turn them 'clockwise' (which is what a right-click means) to advance the frequency.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Frostiken

[mvsgas]

When I was learning the sim, there were only two major control things to keep in mind:

 

When you left-click a switch, it simulates your hand flipping it up or flipping it to the left (not many of these exist...).

When you left-click a knob, it simulates your hand turning the knob counter-clockwise (ie: 'turning it left').

 

Don't think of it as how the knob is implemented, but how your 'hand' (the mouse) interacts with the cockpit. So when I saw these radio knobs, I expect to turn them left to advance the frequency. Maybe this is due to my real-life background with these kinds of things, but was an annoying hurdle I had when learning to fly without easy comms / radios as I'd always advance the frequency in the wrong direction.

 

If you put the DCS: A-10 radio in a real cockpit, the pilot would be baffled, because whenever he tried to turn it left, the frequency would go down. To me it was about as backwards as having a random switch in the cockpit work by flipping it up with a right-click instead. You're supposed to turn the knobs in a counter-clockwise direction to advance the frequency up, but they've programmed them backwards where you seemingly turn them counter-clockwise (with a right-click) to advance the frequency.

Thank you, now I understand your point. Not sure why they where modeled that way. It could be due to the way the switch work within the cockpit model. Maybe the guys will come tells us the reason for that switch movement/ interaction designed. Not sure if it’s a bug or a design necessity.

[digitaljjd]

It is absolutely nothing like 'accidentally firing a gun', because I don't click a mouse to do everything in real life. Also you may have missed his implication there, but he's basically saying anyone who misclicks the fire handles is clearly so stupid they would misfire a gun in real life and pretend 'it just went off'. There's no other way to interpret that.

 

At no point did I mention anything about being stupid, and you did interpret it another way. My point was, that it doesn't move until you click on it, mistake or not. Therefore, you are at fault when this happens. The firearm doesn't just go off, you have to pull the trigger first (Remington 700's excluded) The handles don't just randomly get pulled. Could this happen to me? Yes. Has this happened to others? Yes. Will they change it? Possibly, but making it more difficulty to do, sounds to me more like a Californiaization fix, then addressing what is really happening, which is operator input error. Would a change be better in the long run? Maybe. However without a doubt someone else will complain about it being changed. At any rate, it's not up to me. I do see your point, but I just don't click on it. At least, not yet.

[LostOblivion]

I've done it. Ruined a whole flight. Eject is also not a simple key press. How many people complain that eject doesn't work?

 

I also think that "dead end" switches and dials that don't spin around and around should not cycle as well. Master arm should need to be decreased twice to Train and not be possible to increase beyond Arm back down to Train without passing through safe.

 

I'd also love to see switches working like a dead-end switch. I also completely agree on the idea of "hand as mouse" simulation that left clicks simulates switches "on" or "left" and right clicks does the opposite. This is what I've always felt like it really is, and some switches not working like this in the A-10 and the Ka-50, really annoys me.

[Frostiken]

At no point did I mention anything about being stupid, and you did interpret it another way. My point was, that it doesn't move until you click on it, mistake or not. Therefore, you are at fault when this happens. The firearm doesn't just go off, you have to pull the trigger first (Remington 700's excluded) The handles don't just randomly get pulled. Could this happen to me? Yes. Has this happened to others? Yes. Will they change it? Possibly, but making it more difficulty to do, sounds to me more like a Californiaization fix, then addressing what is really happening, which is operator input error. Would a change be better in the long run? Maybe. However without a doubt someone else will complain about it being changed. At any rate, it's not up to me. I do see your point, but I just don't click on it. At least, not yet.

 

As I mentioned, pulling a handle and pushing a button are two completely different body movements and there's no way that one can accidentally translate to the other, so your comparison to misfiring a gun is 100% invalid. If the fire handle was a button instead of a handle, I guarantee you that it would have a guard over it to prevent inadvertent activation. Because handles are pretty hard to accidentally pull, it's not a huge issue.

 

However, this is a game where I left-click once to do everything. Left-clicking is the same motion as turning a knob, flipping a switch, yanking a handle, and scrolling a wheel. This fundamentally means every control in the cockpit is a button. Mistakes like this are not made in the real aircraft because measures are taken to ensure that it can't be inadvertently activated, be it switch covers, switch safety stops, or giant handles that you have to wrap your whole hand around and pull. None of these safeties are present or even simulated in the game, and at the very least changing the emergency handles to right-click activation ONLY would at least somewhat simulate an intentional action to pull the handle, as the left button, in the case of the UFC, means you're stabbing buttons with your finger. Go ahead and explain how a pilot could be poking something with a finger and then suddenly end up with a whole handle in his hand because he looked away for a second.

 

Your comparison would be more apt if I used guns to do everything in life. Imagine if when I wanted to use my key fob on my car, I pulled out a little pistol-shaped device and pulled a trigger. Then I grabbed the pistol-grip handle and pulled a trigger to release the door latch. Then I pulled the trigger on the steering wheel to start the engine. When I shift gears, I pull a trigger on a pistol-grip gearstick to release a safety lock.

 

When I get home, I pick up a pistol that controls my TV, and you have to pull a trigger to send the commands. When I start my microwave, I yank a slide and pull a trigger.

 

Now, once I do everything in life by holding a pistol-shaped object and pulling triggers, how big a stretch is it that suddenly I'm holding a real gun and pull the trigger on it?

 

Pulling a trigger in real life is a hard action to mistake, since it means you were:

 

1) Holding a gun,

2) Had your finger in the guard,

3) Had the gun charged,

and finally

4) Engaged in a trigger-pulling action.

 

None of these 'accidentally happen', nor do I keep guns lying right next to my pistol-shaped trigger-activated remote control (which is fundamentally all the UFC is). By treating the fire handle as a simple button, you are suggesting that pulling a giant handle is somehow reflexively the same action as pointing with my finger and jabbing a tiny gray button. By comparing it with pulling a trigger, you therefore must also put it in a context where everything I do is done with trigger pulls.

 

So how does ANY of this apply to clicking on a fire handle which is overlapping a tiny button that you ALSO click on using the same action? It doesn't, which is why your argument is invalid.

Edited July 7, 2011 by Frostiken

[159th_Viper]

 

Expressing your opinion should involve more than strawman arguments and ridiculous statements that have nothing to do with the post in question. To respond with anything besides a well thought-out response is doing little more than wasting my time.

 

 

Do not misunderstand me: That was not my opinion nor argument, but a reminder to you to co-operate or see your posting privileges on these boards suspended. If you consider it ridiculous, then I'd seriously suggest you reconsider your interpretive skills.

 

As I said, wind you neck in and think before you hit the 'reply' tab. You'd do well in future to read and comply with rule 1.1 and rule 1.2 of these boards.

 

Consider this your final warning.