Fighters maneuverability comparison

[topol-m]

Is there a way to compare the maneuverability of some of the fighter jets currently in service in different AF around the world? Some charts with numbers, like turn radius etc. I'm interested in a comparison between F-16, F-15, F/A-18E/F, F-22, F-35, Mig-29, Su-30, Rafale, Typhoon. Basically you hear "this one has TVC", "that one has amazing maneuverability in supersonic speeds", "this one can perform Cobra", "that one has a great thrust-to-weight ratio" and so on and so forth. But is there any data to back the claims that one particular aircraft is superior in terms of maneuverability and to allow to draw some conclusions as to which one is and in what conditions?

Edited August 5, 2011 by topol-m

[EtherealN]

Not sure I've ever seen an authoritative source that has compiled the data, so I'd suspect you'd basically have to go through flight manuals individually and compile data for specific scenarios and compare from that.

[mvsgas]

Topol,

The problem would be acquiring the proper information. We are bombarded by companies "best case scenario" numbers.

"X" Aircraft will do 20g

But they won't say that, "X" aircraft will only do 20g with no weapons, traveling at mach1 at 20000. I guess we can discuss our opinions of an aircraft but it would be hard to proof any of it a fact.

 

Also, things you never hear.

How some weapons or the loading of a specific station affects the aircraft maneuverability. IIRC, the F-4 phantom, have a tendency to depart flight if loaded with a centerline tank and the aircraft had more than 19 degrees of alpha.

 

We also have seen the F-16 video.

Rv9YC-gaNYo

they don't put this in charts

[mikoyan]

Topol,

The problem would be acquiring the proper information. We are bombarded by companies "best case scenario" numbers.

 

But they won't say that, "X" aircraft will only do 20g with no weapons, traveling at mach1 at 20000. I guess we can discuss our opinions of an aircraft but it would be hard to proof any of it a fact.

 

Also, things you never hear.

How some weapons or the loading of a specific station affects the aircraft maneuverability. IIRC, the F-4 phantom, have a tendency to depart flight if loaded with a centerline tank and the aircraft had more than 19 degrees of alpha.

 

We also have seen the F-16 video.

 

they don't put this in charts

 

Most of the key performance values are classified; you will get mixed results depending on who you ask.

[mvsgas]

You are correct, so we would only be discussing our opinion of "X" aircraft...Well that's just my opinion :D

[Zakatak]

You can't accurate debate or record flight performance. In a debate, each side will only state flaws about the opposing side, and inflate the positives of his side.

 

In a competition, one aircraft will always be more loaded then another. Malaysia pitted F/A-18's flying with 3 externals and sidewinders up against perfectly clean MiG-29's. Guess who won that battle.

[mikoyan]

You can't accurate debate or record flight performance. In a debate, each side will only state flaws about the opposing side, and inflate the positives of his side.

 

In a competition, one aircraft will always be more loaded then another. Malaysia pitted F/A-18's flying with 3 externals and sidewinders up against perfectly clean MiG-29's. Guess who won that battle.

 

who?

[Cali]

In a competition, one aircraft will always be more loaded then another. Malaysia pitted F/A-18's flying with 3 externals and sidewinders up against perfectly clean MiG-29's. Guess who won that battle.

 

who?

 

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say.............the X-wing fighter.

[topol-m]

I expected that it won't be easy to get the data needed to do a serious comparison. Is this kind of data, like turn radius for instance, available in manuals and can we accept it as accurate?

[nscode]

It sure is. And when someone shows them, it takes like 20 pages for people to understand them.

[aaron886]

"that one has amazing maneuverability in supersonic speeds"

 

Wow, who sold you on THAT one?? :D

[Alfa]

Topol,

The problem would be acquiring the proper information. We are bombarded by companies "best case scenario" numbers.

 

Agreed, but...

 

Also, things you never hear.

How some weapons or the loading of a specific station affects the aircraft maneuverability. IIRC, the F-4 phantom, have a tendency to depart flight if loaded with a centerline tank and the aircraft had more than 19 degrees of alpha.

 

I think that depends on what source of information you rely on - e.g. in the F-18 flight manual, I remember seeing a fairly comprehensive chart of prohibited manouveres, which deals with exactly the kind of issues you mentioned.

 

Not surprising considering that the purpose of the manual is to teach aircrew to operate the aircraft safely and how to get out of potentially hazardous situations :) . Ok at least some of those "prohibitions" may have something to do with avoiding costly maintenance as well......i.e. not putting excessive stress on the equipment during peace-time training, but at least it gives you an idea of what the aircraft "doesn't like" to do.

[GGTharos]

I think that depends on what source of information you rely on - e.g. in the F-18 flight manual, I remember seeing a fairly comprehensive chart of prohibited manouveres, which deals with exactly the kind of issues you mentioned.

 

They're not really prohibited in combat, just FYI. The -1 style manuals will tell you a lot of neat things, but not everything. There are definitely interesting descriptions and tables however that will tell you how resistant an aircraft is to departure based on payload types or weight asymmetry - for example, the F-15 is more prone to departure with two tanks, and certain maneuvers are prohibited if you have greater than 600lbs fuel imbalance.

 

You have to pick which ones make sense and why - eg. I've seen a prohibition against continuous aileron rolls in some -1, and that may have more to do with pilot disorientation than anything else.

[GGTharos]

As mentioned by others, you can find the right docs and you can get a reasonable image for some planes. Charts are readily available I think for the 16, 15, 29, 27, and 18. They are reasonably complete, but I wouldn't say they're always super-easy to get.

 

For the others you wrote down there, good luck with that. ;)

 

Is there a way to compare the maneuverability of some of the fighter jets currently in service in different AF around the world? Some charts with numbers, like turn radius etc. I'm interested in a comparison between F-16, F-15, F/A-18E/F, F-22, F-35, Mig-29, Su-30, Rafale, Typhoon. Basically you hear "this one has TVC", "that one has amazing maneuverability in supersonic speeds", "this one can perform Cobra", "that one has a great thrust-to-weight ratio" and so on and so forth. But is there any data to back the claims that one particular aircraft is superior in terms of maneuverability and to allow to draw some conclusions as to which one is and in what conditions?

[Alfa]

They're not really prohibited in combat, just FYI.

 

Well "prohibited" - I think the term is used more in the general sense of "unwise" things to do for varies reasons, rather than being an actual threat of diciplinary action :) .

 

You have to pick which ones make sense and why - eg. I've seen a prohibition against continuous aileron rolls in some -1, and that may have more to do with pilot disorientation than anything else.

 

Yup.

[mvsgas]

Agreed, but...

 

 

 

I think that depends on what source of information you rely on - e.g. in the F-18 flight manual, I remember seeing a fairly comprehensive chart of prohibited manouveres, which deals with exactly the kind of issues you mentioned.

 

Not surprising considering that the purpose of the manual is to teach aircrew to operate the aircraft safely and how to get out of potentially hazardous situations :) . Ok at least some of those "prohibitions" may have something to do with avoiding costly maintenance as well......i.e. not putting excessive stress on the equipment during peace-time training, but at least it gives you an idea of what the aircraft "doesn't like" to do.

Ok, but how many people can say the have the actual manual from any modern aircraft. I know many people claim to have the 1F-16(enter block here)-1 for F-16 for example. They forget the -1-1 that has all the limitation and charts and the -1-2 that has all the drag factor among other things. Then there is the -34 wish tell you how the systems work and two more manual that work with the -34 to complete the picture. Again, just having one manual does not cover everything.

[GGTharos]

Usually you can get all of that for older aircraft. It's enough to give you a reasonable idea. You won't get a -34 (or at least, it isn't likely) but that isn't a huge issue for comparing flight performance in general.

 

There -are- details that you won't get out of manuals, ie. for example, MiG-29 pilots not quite driving to 9g because their equipment doesn't protect the airframe so well from an over-g, as well as other issues.

[mvsgas]

-34 Affects some things. If the aircraft is set to cat three (III) it will not handle the same.

[GGTharos]

Yes, that is a control law issue. Like for the F-15 for example, you sometimes want to know what the CAS is doing (although the whole point of it was that you didn't need to worry about it).

 

Frankly I just can't see someone in a CAT 3 aircraft getting into a furball, but stranger things can and have happened.

 

Edit: I'll point out though that mvsgas is making a good point: You can get some general ideas, but in a lot of cases, there are details which you just won't know unless an operator or someone familiar with the aircraft will tell you.

Edited August 8, 2011 by GGTharos

[Alfa]

Ok, but how many people can say the have the actual manual from any modern aircraft.

 

Not to mention for several - which would be required to make comparisons.

 

I know many people claim to have the 1F-16(enter block here)-1 for F-16 for example. They forget the -1-1 that has all the limitation and charts and the -1-2 that has all the drag factor among other things. Then there is the -34 wish tell you how the systems work and two more manual that work with the -34 to complete the picture. Again, just having one manual does not cover everything.

 

I know mvsgas :) .

[aaron886]

And really, only an experienced pilot knows what the aircraft is capable of and how to employ its strengths, and no pilot is experienced with every airframe. Most comparisons of fighters in the 21st century are absolute BS.