Guide to BVR for Su/Mig?

[112th_Rossi]

:(

 

I've been playing on the S77th Server latley (Good server guys, thanks) I have been finding that my ass is being handed to me time after time. I love flying the migs and the su's but im finding that BVR combat very hard.

 

It seems that F15 jamming is very powerfull so its hard to get a clean shot and HOJ seems to be non existant in the russian jets. I've been staying low and hunting with my radar pointed upwards for targets, conversly I have tried staying high and hunting in EOS. Nothing seems to help. With SARH missiles I can't seem to score a kill as I always have to go defensive and lose my lock.

 

So, any tips for the newb BVR? I am a veteran flight simmer, its just that this kind of combat is hard for me.

 

Thanks! :)

[S77th-GOYA]

I can't really help with the Russkie birds but, are you having trouble with opposing Su/MiGs as well or just the 15s?

[112th_Rossi]

Yeah, everything basically lol. This is what happens:

 

1. Take Off

2. RWR lights up so I turn to its bearing to see what I can see

3. Turn on Radar and ECM, I can see Jamming ahead

4. Not sure what to do at this point, so I lock the Jam

5. This gives me a position, so I maintain the lock

6. Perhaps fire a SARH Missile to wake them up and go defensive

7. BANG... im dead. lol.

 

What im looking for really is some kind of procedure to follow.

[112th_Rossi]

Sorry double post.

[GGTharos]

Yeah, everything basically lol. This is what happens:

 

1. Take Off

2. RWR lights up so I turn to its bearing to see what I can see

3. Turn on Radar and ECM, I can see Jamming ahead

4. Not sure what to do at this point, so I lock the Jam

5. This gives me a position, so I maintain the lock

6. Perhaps fire a SARH Missile to wake them up and go defensive

7. BANG... im dead. lol.

 

What im looking for really is some kind of procedure to follow.

 

 

You're getting blown away by a SARH shot.

 

Never EVER fly straight at the target. Fire your missile, and turn away while maintaining lock is the minimum that you should do.

[112th_Rossi]

Do I fire on the jam or wait till burn through? F15 burn through seems to be a lot further than an rusky jet.

[britgliderpilot]

Do I fire on the jam or wait till burn through? F15 burn through seems to be a lot further than an rusky jet.

 

I'd fire on jam, and then turn away. If you burn through, crank in and fire again before turning away again.

[GGTharos]

The AI cheats. Nuff said ;)

[S77th-GOYA]

I'm no expert on Russian jets, but there seems to be some wierd advice here. You asked about SARH missles and in order for them to hit, you've got to maintain lock. If the bandit is spiking you, use the RWR to determine range. Cycle your jammer as you near Rmax. Fire, f-pole and don't screw up.

 

AI?

 

edit: burn-through is about the same range for all birds.

[112th_Rossi]

Whats F-Pole? Sorry my newbness.

[britgliderpilot]

Whats F-Pole? Sorry my newbness.

 

F-Pole is a BVR tactic.

 

At it's simplest . . . . . you accelerate as high and fast as you can to give your missile more kinetic energy at launch - so very long range.

 

You fire . . . . and immediately slow down and turn to place the bandit at the gimbal limits of your radar. You still maintain lock, but you're only moving into his launch zone ve-ry-slo-w-ly . . . . . . if you were higher and faster at launch, your missile's kinetic range (F-Pole) is greater than his. You can fire before he can, and especially since you are moving much slower towards him, your missile should hit before his does, so it'll go wild. Yuo = teh win.

 

 

It gets more complicated with jamming, and it gets more complicated when missiles with active seekers are involved . . . . but that's the basic technique.

[britgliderpilot]

I'm no expert on Russian jets, but there seems to be some wierd advice here. You asked about SARH missles and in order for them to hit, you've got to maintain lock. If the bandit is spiking you, use the RWR to determine range. Cycle your jammer as you near Rmax. Fire, f-pole and don't screw up.

 

AI?

 

edit: burn-through is about the same range for all birds.

 

An SARH missile fired in HOJ does not necessarily need a lock. If the target does not maneuvre and keeps jamming, it is possible for a missile to hit solely on HOJ.

 

Maintaining the lock will increase PK when you burn-through, though.

 

 

Rossi, are you aware that when launching HOJ in the Russian aircraft you need to estimate range to target, set range to target, and override the launch limits?

 

 

 

And the AI cheats in all kinds of ways - fingers crossed for the new dynamics in v1.2 ;)

[Guest Unforgiven]

hope this helps

 

http://64.128.80.11/~locdout/movies/F-Pole.avi (right click save as)

on heres a great flick on how to do the F-pole manuever, by Locsta.

This move is best done at high altitudes and a higher then the target.

I find much success with the russian planes especially the Mig 29s. My strategy is as follows...

 

Of course once you pick up enemy radar you know where he is so proceed in that direction but as someone said you dont want to fly straight at them. Instead try to flank them, before entering a mission I will look at the map and go off of the plotted course at like a 45 degree angle and when I get to the place I know the enemy will be come back to the wp at a 90 degree angle. Try doing this undetected.

Never fly with your radar on all the time. I personally dont like hoj cause its not that effective and meanwhile the enemy has a beam on ur position. 120s Imo are more affective anyway at HOJ then Russian planes. Same goes for your ECM. I fly with all of this off and most of my kills in a Russian jet are visually aquired, with the enemy never knowing what hit them.

I use ECM when using my own radar or when I'm being tracked. Say I'm flying at 7000m nose cold and music off. Suddenly im being locked, I switch on my ECM go inverted and fly perpindicular to the enemy locking me (basically flying straight down also known as beaming) as I'm descending I will roll 180 degrees cut off my ECM and Radar if it was on. Level out at say 5000m or w/e and most of the time you will have broken the enemy lock. Leaving you to find him visually or try to get him on your own radar.

I dont know if this helps but just thought id put in my two cents instead of saying um ... something dumb. BTW leaving off your ECM enables friendlies to know who you are. Russian aircraft arent able to tell the differance in jam signals which can get real annoying. thats another reason why i dont use ECM that much. Well Im done rambling.

[S77th-GOYA]

An SARH missile fired in HOJ does not necessarily need a lock. If the target does not maneuvre and keeps jamming, it is possible for a missile to hit solely on HOJ.

 

Maintaining the lock will increase PK when you burn-through, though.

 

 

Rossi, are you aware that when launching HOJ in the Russian aircraft you need to estimate range to target, set range to target, and override the launch limits?

 

 

 

And the AI cheats in all kinds of ways - fingers crossed for the new dynamics in v1.2 ;)

 

If you turn away, you no longer paint the target, meaning he no longer emits jamming to your radar, meaning there's nothing for the missle to home on. HOJ doesn't do lead pursuit anyway, so in order to hit, the target would need to fly directly into the position where your missle was when you stopped painting the bandit. The position where it went ballistic. That's waaaaay unlikely.

 

I'm still missing the part where AI is asked about.

[SniperRu]

I'm no expert on Russian jets, but there seems to be some wierd advice here. You asked about SARH missles and in order for them to hit, you've got to maintain lock. If the bandit is spiking you, use the RWR to determine range. Cycle your jammer as you near Rmax. Fire, f-pole and don't screw up.

 

AI?

 

edit: burn-through is about the same range for all birds.

 

Hey, sorry my newbness but can you tell me what is RWR and how do you determine the range with it?

TIA

[Sealpup]

RWR: The Russians have an SPO-series Radar Warning Reciever, its the thing in the lower right with a top-down picture of a MiG-21.

 

The SPO gives you a signal strength indication on your primary threat. It's the half-circle of lights around the MiG-21 image, inside the bearing lights circle. The more of the signal strength lights are lit, the closer the target is.

 

This is only good for rough guesstimates of range, but if you get an eye for it, it can be good enough for a HoJ shot. I dont have an eye for it, though, so dont ask me for any range finding pointers.

[britgliderpilot]

If you turn away, you no longer paint the target, meaning he no longer emits jamming to your radar, meaning there's nothing for the missle to home on. HOJ doesn't do lead pursuit anyway, so in order to hit, the target would need to fly directly into the position where your missle was when you stopped painting the bandit. The position where it went ballistic. That's waaaaay unlikely.

 

I'm still missing the part where AI is asked about.

 

 

That's the way it should work, but IIRC it doesn't work that way in Lomac. If your jammers are on, you're jamming . . .

 

 

The bit about the AI cheating was to demonstrate that some of the things he was complaining about was the AI being inhumanly good and having some advantages that human pilots don't

[Wags]

Not exactly, F-pole is not a tactic; it is simply the distance between you and the target at missile impact. The idea is to use tactics to increase this pole. Tactics to increase F-pole include cranks, chopping throttles, etc.

 

Likewise, A-Pole is the distance between you and the target when your missile goes active, and E-pole is the distance at which you can you can still extend away from the target and not worry about a missile from the target having enough energy to reach you.

 

Anyhow, that's how I remember the actual definitions.

 

-Matt (Top Gun class 7/97 non-flying)

 

 

 

F-Pole is a BVR tactic.

 

At it's simplest . . . . . you accelerate as high and fast as you can to give your missile more kinetic energy at launch - so very long range.

 

You fire . . . . and immediately slow down and turn to place the bandit at the gimbal limits of your radar. You still maintain lock, but you're only moving into his launch zone ve-ry-slo-w-ly . . . . . . if you were higher and faster at launch, your missile's kinetic range (F-Pole) is greater than his. You can fire before he can, and especially since you are moving much slower towards him, your missile should hit before his does, so it'll go wild. Yuo = teh win.

 

 

It gets more complicated with jamming, and it gets more complicated when missiles with active seekers are involved . . . . but that's the basic technique.

[Asterix28573]

Rossi, are you aware that when launching HOJ in the Russian aircraft you need to estimate range to target, set range to target, and override the launch limits?

 

Britglider, could you elaborate on that? It's first time I hear that I must somewhat SET the estimated range to the target. ¿How is this performed? I usually simply launch the HOJ shot when my RWR shows a radar signal strong enough (according to what I remembered from 1.02) after locking on the jam strobe.

 

But I usually miss, so probably there's something I'm doing wrong... ;)

 

Best regards,

Asterix

[SniperRu]

Britglider, could you elaborate on that? It's first time I hear that I must somewhat SET the estimated range to the target. ¿How is this performed? I usually simply launch the HOJ shot when my RWR shows a radar signal strong enough (according to what I remembered from 1.02) after locking on the jam strobe.

 

But I usually miss, so probably there's something I'm doing wrong... ;)

 

Best regards,

Asterix

 

you must set the range with "Ctrl +" "Ctrl -"

[Asterix28573]

you must set the range with "Ctrl +" "Ctrl -"

 

Ok, thanks a lot. ¿Any clue about how to correlate radar strength signals on RWR with A/C distances?

 

Cheers,

Asterix

[KILSEK]

Hi all and Wags.

 

Not exactly, F-pole is not a tactic; it is simply the distance between you and the target at missile impact. The idea is to use tactics to increase this pole. Tactics to increase F-pole include cranks, chopping throttles, etc.

 

Likewise, A-Pole is the distance between you and the target when your missile goes active, and E-pole is the distance at which you can you can still extend away from the target and not worry about a missile from the target having enough energy to reach you.

 

Anyhow, that's how I remember the actual definitions.

 

-Matt (Top Gun class 7/97 non-flying)

 

May I ask you a favor? When you say cranks, chopping, throttles, A-pole, F-pole, E-pole, It all sounds like Latin. Do you have a doc that you could post describing these and any other terminology that a green guy like myself or others could d/l to use as a reference?

 

Not to blow smoke, but you are the one who, I believe, we all would agree, when you say "this is this" we take it as an absolute. -KILSEK

[SniperRu]

Ok, thanks a lot. ¿Any clue about how to correlate radar strength signals on RWR with A/C distances?

 

Cheers,

Asterix

 

I'm trying to find out myself :icon_conf

[GGTharos]

crank=turn, chopping throttle= pull the throttle back ...

 

And he just explained all the poles, too. THe *-Pole is just a distance.

[S77th-GOYA]

I'm trying to find out myself :icon_conf

 

Build a mission with a bandit flying toward you with no missles. Turn labels on. Look at the lights, look at the distance. Then you'll know it as well as anybody.