Alpha Limiter - FC2

159th_Viper · October 24, 2011

...The Cobra is worthwhile in combat only in extremely narrow circumstances.

Aye - I would have thought that if one has a bandit so far up your A$$ in order to make a Cobra effective then you by rights should have been dead a long time ago........Unless the bandit was sightseeing, that is :P

combatace · October 24, 2011

Well I have seen the bandit so far up my ass many times on the guns only server and I literally don't think that he was sleeping or dreaming.

I'm not defending the cobra as the most effective maneuver but one can't just negate the chances of its usefulness.

EtherealN · October 24, 2011

Well... guns-only-server... You start off there. That type of plane does not operate in a "guns only" environment in real life. An ever there, someone being that close means the guy behind you did something really wrong.

GGTharos · October 24, 2011

He was sleeping. If he's sitting right on your tail in lag, instead of 1500' with the pipper on you, he's not doing it right.

Certainly a cobra will help an already overshooting bandit overshoot even harder. If he doesn't know what to do about it in addition to messing up with that overshoot, that isn't the cobra's fault, it's the particular pilot's.

Further to this, the scripted cobra in LO/FC throws you out of the maneuver at 250kph ... it should be 90 - so I think you can see there's some game-ism happening here as well.

Anyway, the big deal in the first paragraph. I'm just saying, it woks in a very narrow bunch of parameters.

Well I have seen the bandit so far up my ass many times on the guns only server and I literally don't think that he was sleeping or dreaming.

I'm not defending the cobra as the most effective maneuver but one can't just negate the chances of its usefulness.

RIPTIDE · October 24, 2011

Err, the engines aren't what does the big job in that, inertia and the initial high alpha is. Engines "just" pick up the slack.

Err... when I say "near total loss of lift" that'll be when there's no lift, ie when the AoA has rendered the wing useless. Sure, I know they'll be that push at the start when the nose initially goes up.

RIPTIDE · October 24, 2011

Russians bet the win of cobra mostly for gain of altitude with very high turn rate, which other plane cannot perform and the instant loss on speed will put the plane behind the enemy and all this happening in just a few seconds.

I would bet against the cobra been actually ever used as part of a combat training other than stick practice. And everytime the Russians say that it'll be a part of a manoeuvre to defeat teh enemy, I bet they are trying real hard not to laugh. Master Trolls is what they are.

The only time I can see it been used, is when you want to finish a fight off real quick and you are willing to take a big big chance. Such a big risk to take that you could wait a few more seconds to BFM the target anyway. Certainly most/all of its contemporary at its time of introduction would have been toast anyway if the fight came to that range. IN a guns/heater fight, everyone is generally manoeuvred out to moderate speed. Things happen slow. If you pull one of these speed killer manouvers, its gives your bandit plenty of time to react and align the pipper or whatever long before he passes.. You become fixed in the sky.

The cobra itself isn't interesting. What is interesting is what it means, control ability and recovery, engines still working at high these angles etc. That's the most interesting part.

Edited October 24, 2011 by RIPTIDE

Pfheonix · October 24, 2011

Nah, you won't. There is an alpha limitation built into the flight model. (And beyond that, there are some absolute limitations based on the aircraft base.)

Also, if you think the "cobra" is what makes the SU-27 "awesome," you are barking up the wrong tree. I hear HAWX is great though! :D (I'm mostly just messing with ya.)

By awesome, I'm referring to the supermaneuverability of the aircraft, which the cobra demonstrates. But it does have the slightest use in combat, but only to break radar lock in a one on one close combat energy-irrelevance fight. You know. The one that doesn't happen.

GGTharos · October 24, 2011

By awesome, I'm referring to the supermaneuverability of the aircraft,

... which it does not have.

which the cobra demonstrates.

It demonstrates some measure of controllability post-stall. A very specific post-stall. If you enter the stall in this way, you can easily exit it in that way. It has no other significance.

But it does have the slightest use in combat, but only to break radar lock in a one on one close combat energy-irrelevance fight.

Because it can't happen. You won't break a radar lock just because you pulled a cobra - and if you are in a position to do so, there are many better ways of doing so - in no case it'll be breaking the lock of a radar pinging away at it at close to gun employment ranges.

Pfheonix · October 24, 2011

Supermaneuverability has no clean and clear definition. Post-stall maneuverability, which maneuvers such as the Cobra are classified as, are a trait of so called "supermaneuverability." This classification supposes the Su-27 as being supermaneuverable due to a high thrust:weight ratio and ability to perform at high alpha levels. QED the Su-27 can be defined as supermaneuverable. And by radar lock I meant useful radar lock. When an enemy aircraft is capable of firing a weapon which is radar guided and actually having a pK of over zero, then the radar lock is useful. Otherwise, it gives you a circle on your HUD to let you know that the person is behind you now. With the loss of speed and suddenness of the maneuver, the other pilot will be hard pressed, given an engagement of less than 200 meters, which is a small distance, mind, but that points to the defensive pilot's ability and airframe potential, to actually react in a timely manner in order to keep the defending aircraft within his gun zone. Thus, useful radar lock is broken and the defender becomes the attacker. Like I said, "The [engagement] that doesn't happen."

FLANKERATOR · October 24, 2011

I personally see the "Cobra" as a last ditch maneuver which in very specific and narrow circumstances can provide a snapshot. If the snapshot is not converted into a kill, then you're defenseless...naked... and you would probably loose the fight.

Pfheonix · October 24, 2011

Oh, it's one of those "pull every one of the pins on the grenades on your bandolier and run toward the enemy" maneuvers.

GGTharos · October 24, 2011

By that definition I could define the F-18 as super maneuverable.

Pfheonix · October 24, 2011

You can. Because there is no definitive definition.

GGTharos · October 24, 2011

In other words, the other pilot has already messed up because that flanker hasn't been gunned down yet. Good luck surviving that cobra if the attacking aircraft's pilot has half a brain and he does what he should when he sees such a think develop: Quarter-plane and go up. The defender fails to become the attacker - even if the attacker is slow already, he can still go up because he's doing better energy-wise than the flanker pilot who's coming out of that cobra. If he wants, he can just turn away as well and exit the fight. The flanker pilot will never reverse in time to get him in gun range due to - oh, again - low energy! Darn that energy!

You also have some funny definitions, most of which correspond to reality. No one cares about radar lock being broken in a guns fight - this is meaningless as you've described it. The bandit - in your fictional scenario - has gained moved behind the 3-9 line. The radar lock is irrelevant since about the only thing it is useful for is to aim your gun, and everything leading up to this does not require radar-anything.

the other pilot will be hard pressed, given an engagement of less than 200 meters, which is a small distance, mind, but that points to the defensive pilot's ability and airframe potential, to actually react in a timely manner in order to keep the defending aircraft within his gun zone. Thus, useful radar lock is broken and the defender becomes the attacker. Like I said, "The [engagement] that doesn't happen."

aaron886 · October 25, 2011

"Supermaneuverability" has no definition because it's not a damn word. It was probably cooked up by Sukhoi, who sell their aircraft like a bad car salesman.

Also... "an engagement of less than 200 meters?" Haha. You do know that's no longer an engagement, that's a collision, right?

GGTharos · October 25, 2011

Hey, that's /still/ not a bubble violation! ... unless you're flying against an F-22 that is :D

Also... "an engagement of less than 200 meters?" Haha. You do know that's no longer an engagement, that's a collision, right?

RIPTIDE · October 25, 2011

"Supermaneuverability" has no definition because it's not a damn word. It was probably cooked up by Sukhoi, who sell their aircraft like a bad car salesman.

lol. Well I thought that the term "SuperManoeuvrability" was reserved for Thrust Vectoring enabled birds.

159th_Viper · October 25, 2011

For those who enjoy reading:

Supermaneuverable Perching

combatace · October 25, 2011

This discussions in going haywire.

But if Su-27 is not more maneuverable than most of the planes then I guess there is no point in discussing.

GGTharos · October 25, 2011

What are you comparing it to? What do you mean by 'more maneuverable'?

Compared to an F-15, it turns better (A lot better at less than M0.6). But the F-15 has better TWR and climbs better.

The F-18 can out-turn and out-arlpha a flanker (or just about anything out there) but it can't do a cobra (the FLCS won't let you) but it can't out-climb it.

The Su-27 is simply an aircraft that was aerodynamically competitive with its contemporaries. It isn't superior, it is simply on the level, and there's no shame in that.

This discussions in going haywire.

But if Su-27 is not more maneuverable than most of the planes then I guess there is no point in discussing.

FLANKERATOR · October 25, 2011

I think discussing Instantaneous/Sustained Rate of Turn as well as Turn Radius for a given Altitude, Speed and Weight is more relevant than talking Maneuverability in general.

mikoyan · October 27, 2011

So what is the procedure to make the cobra; what switch needs to be turn off to do it? how long does it takes? what would happen if in a dogfight you successfully executed the cobra but you have to keep maneuvering to shoot down your enemy; does the pilot has to reverse the switches position to keep fighting?

I have done the cobra in the sim; and sometimes it worked and others it didn't; it worked like for example to do an r-73 kill using a quick snapshot. it worked when I was in a rolling scissors agains another flanker; both of us where fighting to fly slower to get to each other six; I was loosing because I was going a bit faster than him; I decided to pull the cobra move; he went pass me unable to shoot at me due to the previous rolling scissors; he, instead of using his speed advantage decided to turn tight; I was able to gain some speed and got it with the gun.

It worked against me when a guy pulled a cobra while I was close to his six; he got me because I assumed he was not going to be able to out turn me on a loaded su-33. I got careless I guess.

It has failed miserably when: Enemy is too far; you pull the cobra move and he gets a nice top view to shoot at.

It has failed when the enemy is expecting it; he keeps its energy and pulls away gaining advantage.

Now all this is on the sim; we just hit k and pull; and whoa-la! (as long as you are not going too fast), but what is the real world procedure to do a cobra?

on a su-30mki you just have to have the tvc mode activated and you just pull at from 250 to 350 to do it; but that is a tvc aircraft. How do you do a cobra on a mig; I have seen migs doing it but they don't reach 110 degrees like the flanker; it looks closer to a high alpha pitch like on the f-14.

GGTharos · October 27, 2011

So what is the procedure to make the cobra; what switch needs to be turn off to do it?

You push the stick forward.

what would happened if in a dogfight you successfully executed the cobra but you have to keep maneuvering to shoot down your enemy

You'd find that 90kph isn't enough airspeed for maneuvering.

I have done the cobra in the sim; and sometimes it worked and others it didn't; it worked like for example to do an r-73 kill using a quick snapshot. it worked when I was in a rolling scissors agains another flanker; both of us where fighting to fly slower to get to each other six; I was loosing because I was going a bit faster than him; I decided to pull the cobra move; he went pass me unable to shoot at me due to the previous rolling scissors; he, instead of using his speed advantage decided to turn tight; I was able to gain some speed and got it with the gun.
It worked against me when a guy pulled a cobra while I was close to his six; he got me because I assumed he was not going to be able to out turn me on a loaded su-33. I got careless I guess.

The in-game cobra spits you out at 250kph. Quite a bit faster than it ought to.

Now all this is on the sim; we just hit k and pull; and whoa-la! (as long as you are not going too fast), but what is the real world procedure to do a cobra?

You pull the stick back as hard as you can.

RIPTIDE · October 27, 2011

You'd find that 90kph isn't enough airspeed for maneuvering.

.

90kph might be airshow speed though...

104th_Cobra · October 27, 2011

Cobra manouver is good for air show or Top Gun movie. Angles fight is always about taking a chance/risk, in a singular opportunity.

I like to go to Akado Gunz server in a MiG-29. I love that plane. But if I insist on being slower than corner velocity I'm dead meat with Su-27's.

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