Alpha Limiter - FC2

[Pfheonix]

Do the Sukhoi Su-27s have alpha limiters and g limiters enabled? I'm on Flaming Cliffs 2.0, and I'm trying to perform Pugachev's Cobra. Let's say that the speed loss is happening, but I end up having climbed a thousand feet or so and then leveling off. I can never quite get it to pull back quickly enough to be called a cobra. So, are they enabled and can they be taken off?

[GGTharos]

You cannot do a cobra in FC2, IIRC.

[Pfheonix]

I suppose it's a survey sim, so it's forgivable... But it's so sad. I mean, that's the thing that makes the Su-27 and it's airframe relatives awesome. I'll find a way to do it.

[aaron886]

Nah, you won't. There is an alpha limitation built into the flight model. (And beyond that, there are some absolute limitations based on the aircraft base.)

 

Also, if you think the "cobra" is what makes the SU-27 "awesome," you are barking up the wrong tree. I hear HAWX is great though! :D (I'm mostly just messing with ya.)

[mikoyan]

I think they disabled the cobra move in 2.0.

What I read about the flanker is that it uses a tensiometric stick; it applies a pressure of 20 pounds of pressure, that way the pilot knows he is pushing the machine close to its limits. The pilot is supposed to be able to override the limiter and be able to push pass the g limiter and the alpha limiter. The problem with going over the limiter you can stall the aircraft ; but with the difference that the flaker seems to be more stable tanks to the lifting body design and the twin tail design.

Here is a video of the flanker pulling past the limiter I guess.

On this video I assume the pilot went past the alpha limit;so This supports the idea that the flanker does not have hard aoa limiter like for example an f-16 (I really don't get why the f-16 does not have twin tails; it would have kick ass at lower speeds and higher alphas like the yf-17)

 

 

All these are my observations; you would have to ask a real su-27 to know for sure. I also read that to do the cobra you disable the limiter; maybe the limiter diminish the rate of movement of the elevators? that way once you dissable it you can pull the out of normal pitch rates to produce the cobra. Once the airplane is over the 30 degree aoa limit the pilot uses the trottles to keep the airplane straight. There are some videos on which the flanker doen't remain straight; thus supporting the accounts of pilots using the trottles to keep the jet straight. After the airplane slows down, the nose goes down; I don't know if it is because of the weight of the nose of the aircraft or all the drag produced by the tail section and center fuselage.

Now going back to our sim; lock-on does not simulates some of the of the high alpha behavior of the su-27; mig-29; and f-15. I wish it did; you can do post stall moves though; by staling the jet and keeping it controllable using the rudders; I don't know how realistic is that; to me the rudders are a bit too effective; again I can't prove that. Another thing you can do is fly with acs failure; that way you can pull like 13gs and have very cool pitch rates; with the side effect of stalling more easily.

 

Here is what you can do in lock-on

 

Check this out; an f-15 pilot says that the flanker is very similar to an f-15

 

http://www.eaa.org/warbirdsbriefing/articles/1001_flanker.asp

[RIPTIDE]

Just comment back in the k/cobra key in the input files. Works.

[EtherealN]

I suppose it's a survey sim, so it's forgivable... But it's so sad. I mean, that's the thing that makes the Su-27 and it's airframe relatives awesome. I'll find a way to do it.

 

Meh, Cobra is nothing new for the Flanker. :P

 

 

See time 1:50 and on. :)

 

The maneuver is as useless in actual combat for the Draken as it is for the Flanker though. :D

[combatace]

Do the Sukhoi Su-27s have alpha limiters and g limiters enabled? I'm on Flaming Cliffs 2.0, and I'm trying to perform Pugachev's Cobra. Let's say that the speed loss is happening, but I end up having climbed a thousand feet or so and then leveling off. I can never quite get it to pull back quickly enough to be called a cobra. So, are they enabled and can they be taken off?

 

It works just do one thing, go to this folder

 

LockOn Flaming Cliffs 2\Config\Input\Aircrafts\su-27\keyboard

 

delete keyboard.lua and open default.lua in notepad++ and go to lie 84 and delete the first 2 dashes and save the file. now you can perform cobra just press K.. enjoy..

 

Its is not that if the maneuver is not useful in combat Su-27 can't perform it. The ultimate truth is Su-27 can perform cobra.

Edited October 24, 2011 by combatace

[sobek]

Its is not that if the maneuver is not useful in combat Su-27 can't perform it. The ultimate truth is Su-27 can perform cobra.

 

The ultimate truth is that while nice to look at, in combat it's right there next to setting yourself on fire. ;)

[combatace]

The ultimate truth is that while nice to look at, in combat it's right there next to setting yourself on fire. ;)

 

So what did I say? ;)

[Dimebag]

Might be good as a shoulder check if you have a stiff neck.

[sobek]

So what did I say? ;)

 

That ED should have implemented a flight model that contemporary hardware would not have been able to handle at the time, for a gimmick that has no importance to the simulation of air combat, which is what FC strives to do. ;)

[EtherealN]

Also, note that the "old" Cobra is just a scripted event. Making the Cobra do-able in the flight model itself would require AFM (and I am unsure if current AFM tech would be enough, but Yo-Yo is a wizard so he could probably find a way). Basically, until DCS: Flanker (or DCS: Draken :D ) it's just a very crude script event.

[RIPTIDE]

Meh, Cobra is nothing new for the Flanker. :P

 

 

See time 1:50 and on. :)

 

The maneuver is as useless in actual combat for the Draken as it is for the Flanker though. :D

That isn't a cobra. I thought we discussed this. :)

[RIPTIDE]

The ultimate truth is that while nice to look at, in combat it's right there next to setting yourself on fire. ;)

Yep. All the haters come out when there's a cobra discussion with straw men.

[EtherealN]

It is a cobra, but it is correct that it is not the Pougachev cobra. :)

 

And well, anything to help remove the notion that the cobra is useful in combat. Way too many people still cling to that illusion. (And I fear it'll become even more common after that new Aces Combat game...)

[Serg23]

Cobra can be open and performed at Mig 29 A,C; Su 27 and Su 33 as well by using the same method, discibed above.

 

Cobra can be perform (in FC 2) only when you have 500 km/h or less...

 

Whatch out of speed reduction up to 250 after the Cobra and you should out of you joy to correct horisontal performance...

 

:smilewink:

[Serg23]

And well, anything to help remove the notion that the cobra is useful in combat. Way too many people still cling to that illusion.

 

 

Cobra can be performed only for:

 

- pass to the front from you animy (Yo-Yo) (guns);

- redusing speed;

- firing R 73 with on-helmet system with bid radil diff to aim (to reduce it once) (usualy this kind of Cobra called Huk);

 

 

:smilewink:

[EtherealN]

What's the etymology of "Huk", out of interest? I guess this is transliterated from russian but sounds like "hook" in english?

 

(Language nerd. :D )

 

That aside, I still don't see the effective utility. You'll only be able to use it to make your opponent pass you in BFM if your opponent is incompetent - any competent pilot would kill you long before he is situated where it would do it's purpose. Reducing speed is of course also nice, but speed is life. I do not see the utility, and in a furball it should definitely not be useful - it will take the plane far too long to regain energy and for all of that time it will be at the mercy of everyone around it.

 

Off-boresight shots are a similar situation - I just don't see it being used. You have so little time to do it and it leaves you extremely vulnerable.

 

What it does do is show off the very nice high-alpha control of the platform, which is in itself very useful. I regard it pretty much like a computer benchmark - not useful in itself for anything practical, but a good way to show that the equipment is capable of some extreme things. :)

Edited October 24, 2011 by EtherealN

[combatace]

Also, note that the "old" Cobra is just a scripted event. Making the Cobra do-able in the flight model itself would require AFM (and I am unsure if current AFM tech would be enough, but Yo-Yo is a wizard so he could probably find a way). Basically, until DCS: Flanker (or DCS: Draken :D ) it's just a very crude script event.

 

Right and the cobra that can be done in FC2 is even not the right one.

 

Plane just stands on it tail and drops back where as in real plane climbs up few hundred feet with very high AOA.

[Serg23]

Plane just stands on it tail and drops back where as in real plane climbs up few hundred feet with very high AOA.

 

I'm not that sure...

 

Cobra performance depend on the preposition parameters, such as...

 

- speed (rising, lowerig or stable);

- horizontal angle appon the Cobra;

- lateral angle...

 

- ect.

 

You may have H in and out of Cobra the same, or drop of H out from Cobra up to 200m or clibing up to 500m... depend on you preposition.

 

Try more with the same parametrs (horisont, speed 470, stable), pasently (5-7 time the same parametrs), to get feeling what is Cobra on certain parametrs...

than try to change horisontal angle + 12-15 you will see big diff in out put parametrs...

 

:thumbup:

[RIPTIDE]

Right and the cobra that can be done in FC2 is even not the right one.

 

Plane just stands on it tail and drops back where as in real plane climbs up few hundred feet with very high AOA.

The real cobra, when executed properly should result in little or no altitude gain/loss with the near total loss of lift been compensated for by the engines.

[EtherealN]

Err, the engines aren't what does the big job in that, inertia and the initial high alpha is. Engines "just" pick up the slack.

[combatace]

The real cobra, when executed properly should result in little or no altitude gain/loss with the near total loss of lift been compensated for by the engines.

 

Yes thats right but you are talking about time frame 0 and 1, 1 as end of maneuver. What I'm saying is when pilot pulls the stick up planes goes up with very high AOA stays upright for a moment then drops out to horizontal position, losing a bit of altitude and speed.

 

Russians bet the win of cobra mostly for gain of altitude with very high turn rate, which other plane cannot perform and the instant loss on speed will put the plane behind the enemy and all this happening in just a few seconds.

[GGTharos]

The win will be the chase aircraft's if it is in the control zone (and why wouldn't it be?). Motionless target = target full of holes. And it takes less than two seconds to recognize the development, make the decision, pull the trigger. The Cobra is worthwhile in combat only in extremely narrow circumstances.