Radar systems switched side here?

[Buzpilot]

How many errors? :helpsmilie: Kind of disappointing for advanced mission building.

Tried to see if Recon planes would work, instead of just change mission with trigger.

MIG 25 detects AESA radar?

 

Cntl+Z for fast forwarding.

Shift+Z for normal speed.

recon test Mission.miz

[Speed]

How many errors? :helpsmilie: Kind of disappointing for advanced mission building.

Tried to see if Recon planes would work, instead of just change mission with trigger.

MIG 25 detects AESA radar?

 

Cntl+Z for fast forwarding.

Shift+Z for normal speed.

 

What is the problem? You want us to figure it out? How likely is that to get you help?

 

If it's a recon plane that is reacting to enemy radar, and you want it to not react to that enemy radar, simply set "REACTION TO THREAT" for the group to "NO REACTION".

Edited March 22, 2012 by Speed

[Buzpilot]

What is the problem? You want us to figure it out? How likely is that to get you help?

 

If it's a recon plane that is reacting to enemy radar, and you want it to not react to that enemy radar, simply set "REACTION TO THREAT" for the group to "NO REACTION".

 

I guess you didn't even look to see, I put one recon on each side, a A-10C would not even get a warning, until missiles turn their own radar on. But the other side gets advantage by having even AI to see whats supposed to be invisible. Looks like the old russian ship have AESA radar, but Patriot use a 'old' radar system.

 

Look here from 8:00 if you are not sure how patriot radar works.

 

Edit; Wasn't me that put this into Mission builder's corner, maybe it should been moved to bug list thread?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Buzpilot

[Eddie]

Edit; Wasn't me that put this into Mission builder's corner, maybe it should been moved to bug list thread?

 

Is this meant to be a bug report? If it is then I suggest you go back to the beginning and start again, because as is evident nobody can make sense of what you are saying.

 

You attached a mission file, therefore leading the mods to make the perfectly reasonable assumption that you were asking a mission building question.

 

Having loaded and ran your mission, I can't see anything wrong at all. Parhaps if you acutally describe the issue you think you have found and provide tracks etc as per the instructions HERE people might be able to look in to it.

[Speed]

I guess you didn't even look to see, I put one recon on each side, a A-10C would not even get a warning, until missiles turn their own radar on. But the other side gets advantage by having even AI to see whats supposed to be invisible. Looks like the old russian ship have AESA radar, but Patriot use a 'old' radar system.

 

Look here from 8:00 if you are not sure how patriot radar works.

 

Edit; Wasn't me that put this into Mission builder's corner, maybe it should been moved to bug list thread?

 

Well, I can't look to see. Not here. And a lot of time, if the issue is reported properly, I won't need to look at the mission, either. But if you're trying to report an issue, you should never depend on the mission having to be loaded and require us to figure out what the problem is. You need to give an full description of the problem, and then, if possible (it usually is possible), give an example or example mission to be loaded, and tell us where the problem occurs in it (if applicable).

[Buzpilot]

Having loaded and ran your mission, I can't see anything wrong at all.

I could work out a detailed list, but with this 'nobody cares' attitude, I'll just mention a couple.

MIG-25RBT Service ceiling 24200m or 80,667 feet

F-15E Service ceiling 18200m or 60,667 feet

All AI set to High, Recon waypoints all above 60,000feet, MIG >65,000 F-15 >62,000

Both start loosing altitude and use afterburner trying to keep it, at around 55,000 feet MIG ignores altitude waypoint, and dives with afterburner, seems it's capable of detecting Patriot Radar.

F-15E Struggle to keep altitude, loosing speed and altitude slowly ,at 39,000feet speed 285, Pyotr fires 2 missiles about 40nm away. And hits F-15 with first one, every time.

The Patriot system ignore MIG, passing at 10nm,and 820m altitude, speed 611 .

The advanced options here is different, maybe I need to put plane on some sort of kill list?

Edit; I forgot a couple trucks, still MIG detected Patriot radar, without power supply truck :music_whistling:

 

Nothing wrong at all?

Edited March 22, 2012 by Buzpilot

[159th_Viper]

Nothing wrong at all?

 

You tell me, apart from the Mig and F15 service-ceilings that you seem to have an issue with, that is.

[Buzpilot]

You tell me, apart from the Mig and F15 service-ceilings that you seem to have an issue with, that is.

 

How can a MIG25 see the Patriot system?

And why don't F-15 dive to ground like MIG25 did, inside search area?

 

also, why is the Engagement range for Patriot only 100km, should be 160km.

And Search range should be 170km instead of 160km

 

MIG-25RBT First flight 1979.

F-15E introduced april 1988.

Edited March 22, 2012 by Buzpilot

[Speed]

How can a MIG25 see the Patriot system?

And why don't F-15 dive to ground like MIG25 did, inside search area?

 

MIG-25RBT First flight 1979.

F-15E introduced april 1988.

 

I could work out a detailed list, but with this 'nobody cares' attitude, I'll just mention a couple.

MIG-25RBT Service ceiling 24200m or 80,667 feet

F-15E Service ceiling 18200m or 60,667 feet

All AI set to High, Recon waypoints all above 60,000feet, MIG >65,000 F-15 >62,000

Both start loosing altitude and use afterburner trying to keep it, at around 55,000 feet MIG ignores altitude waypoint, and dives with afterburner, seems it's capable of detecting Patriot Radar.

F-15E Struggle to keep altitude, loosing speed and altitude slowly ,at 39,000feet speed 285, Pyotr fires 2 missiles about 40nm away. And hits F-15 with first one, every time.

The Patriot system ignore MIG, passing at 10nm,and 820m altitude, speed 611 .

The advanced options here is different, maybe I need to put plane on some sort of kill list?

Edit; I forgot a couple trucks, still MIG detected Patriot radar, without power supply truck :music_whistling:

 

Nothing wrong at all?

Not much wrong.

 

If you want people to help, you need to, again, describe your problems more clearly, and secondly, it's probably a good idea to start with the assumption that you are screwing up, instead of immediately bashing the game (which many people here will take offense to).

 

And also, the attitude you are conveying across doesn't earn many brownie points here. Yes, I wasn't exactly nice to you with my first post,

What is the problem? You want us to figure it out? How likely is that to get you help?

...but you gotta understand. Nobody here likes it when you ask for help and don't state what the problem is. It's like You: "Doc! Help, I'm sick!" Doctor: "Ok, what are your symptoms." You: "You're the doctor, you tell me!" Doctor: "..."

 

I can help with a great many problems, even without opening the mission and running it. Indeed, my suggestion to you was exactly the first thing you should have done.

 

Now that I am finally home and able to look at the mission (you see, I can't run DCS at work.....) I can see several places where you screwed up.

 

1) You ignored the advice already given to you:

If it's a recon plane that is reacting to enemy radar, and you want it to not react to that enemy radar, simply set "REACTION TO THREAT" for the group to "NO REACTION".

 

I implemented this advice you ignored, and this is the key to solving many of your issues. The aircraft will no longer dive to the deck and try to evade. There are other REACTION TO THREAT options you can experiment around with. Maybe there's one that will allow the aircraft to not lose a whole bunch of altitude. Keep in mind, any serious maneuver at high altitude will bleed huge amounts of airspeed and possibly altitude as well.

 

2) You did not include the vehicles in the Patriot missile group that were necessary for it to work- it needs more than just the radar, the missile launchers and a CP. It needs all the vehicles.

 

3) I deleted your patriot group, and put a new group, simply the Patriot SAM system template plus a few extra radars to get 360 degree coverage, on level ground. You had yours up on a hill, on very steeply sloped ground. That could potentially cause problems.

 

 

4) How can you expect a MiG-25 to fly at 20000 meters at only 1018 km/h with the short, stubby wings its got? You have to make it fly MUCH faster. The U-2 spy plane is subsonic, that's why it has a ridiculous wing surface area:

 

At 20,000 meters, you have to fly FAST to get any lift, or have a huge surface area for your wings.

 

5) I moved the F-15 down to 15,000 meters. He can go a little higher, tests show him able to hold at least 18,000 meters, but not at a very high speed.

 

6) I made the MiG-25 take off from runway, and get a nice, long, running start up to altitude. He doesn't quite make it to 20,000 meters though, before he gets blasted, but it looks like he would eventually. You don't have to make him take off of runway, but I just wanted to show that you could.

 

Anyway, the AI is trying to do what you tell them to, best they know how, but if you tell them to do something impossible, they ain't gonna do it. A MiG-25 doesn't have the wing surface area to fly at 20,000 meters at only 1018 km/h. You can't blame ED for making the game realistic like that ;) Now maybe, if it had powerful enough engines, it could hold level flight at that altitude anyway, but I don't think the engines would develop enough thrust at that speed. Could be wrong though, but I think the faster you go, the more power an engine can develop, as it has a larger and larger air supply coming into. If someone knows anything certain about this, I'd love to hear it.

 

As far as why the MiG-25 could detect the Patriot radar- maybe that's wrong. Maybe that's right. I wouldn't be the one to know. ED has had some issues with RWR modeling over the last several patches (with it getting much better recently), so it is a WIP for sure. Hell, everything is a WIP.

recon test Mission fixed.miz

Edited March 22, 2012 by Speed

[Buzpilot]

I was thinking speed was IAS, so I didn't try putting max speed, was more asking myself if it should been lower speed :)

 

I'm pretty sure the Patriot radar system is AESA like F-22 use, would be a little pointless if a stealty plane only was stealthy with radar on Stand By.

 

The missing reaction from the F-15 led me to believe the Pyotr was invisible, so I started thinking the radar systems was possibly shifted. But after I put in the A-10C to see, I was able to get RWS warning, was even able to close into it, like track will show.

Why do the F-15 ignore it?

Recon Track.trk

[Speed]

Why do the F-15 ignore it?

At waypoint 0, set the F-15s reaction to threat to "evade fire". He'll try to spoof the missiles (unsuccessfully).

[Buzpilot]

At waypoint 0, set the F-15s reaction to threat to "evade fire". He'll try to spoof the missiles (unsuccessfully).

 

I tested this and different options too, but it seems AI react only when the sarh missile go active, about 15km away, and that's fatal.

I remember almost a year ago this ship didn't show at all in RWS, could be it's only fixed for A-10C atm.

[GGTharos]

I'm pretty sure the Patriot radar system is AESA like F-22 use, would be a little pointless if a stealty plane only was stealthy with radar on Stand By.

 

It's PESA, not that it matters. LPI radars are detectable too.

 

Why do the F-15 ignore it?

 

Maybe it's just a bug?

[GGTharos]

Nothing wrong with this. Aircraft service ceilings are maximums obtained at specific speeds and weight configurations. Got payload? Lower the service ceiling, often quite considerably.

 

Similarly with missile systems ... see 'max engagement range', ignore it because all it means is the maximum range of the beginning of engagement, not the capability of the missile. Missiles will often have less range than such a stated max engagement range. In RL patriots tend to engage ABTs at 30km, last I heard.

 

I could work out a detailed list, but with this 'nobody cares' attitude, I'll just mention a couple.

MIG-25RBT Service ceiling 24200m or 80,667 feet

F-15E Service ceiling 18200m or 60,667 feet

 

Nothing wrong at all?

[EtherealN]

Regarding service ceilings, A-10 ceiling varies (according to -1) with drag index, temperature and weight between ~43k feet and ~23k feet. I don't have charts to show for F-15E or MiG-25, but it's a safe assumption that there can be considerable play for those too - so when you see 60000 feet for the F-15E, that's probably a plane that is flying almost empty of fuel, with no or very little ordnance, and possibly even without conformals...

[Buzpilot]

It's PESA, not that it matters. LPI radars are detectable too.

 

It matters if this is only theortical, or future possibilities.

If it didn't matter to me, I would rather go play ufo's in BGO.

I really doubt a fighter from 1979 can detect it(or any other LockOn fighter). Signal will get filtered out as noice.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Buzpilot

[GGTharos]

Yeah, because RWR systems on older fighters don't get upgraded, right?

 

It doesn't matter what you believe or not, only what you can prove. The SPO specifically has markings for 'Patriot', so the odds seem good that it would detect it. :)

 

I really doubt a fighter from 1979 can detect it(or any other LockOn fighter). Signal will get filtered out as noice.

[EtherealN]

A fighter from 1979, like the F-15C? :)

 

Planes aren't static with their construction date.

[Buzpilot]

Wasn't aware that everything are supposed to be upgraded to 2012 avionics, was sure it was 15-20 years old at least.

So this is for everything, or just those there are available data on?

Maybe put up in encyclopedia what year equipment are updated to?

Edited March 23, 2012 by Buzpilot

[159th_Viper]

Does not necessarily take 2012 avionics to counter a threat dating back to 1981. Common sense dictates that the RWR of the Mig will be able to detect the threat without having to stipulate the avionics pedigree, especially as it relates to an A.I. plane.

[Buzpilot]

Does not necessarily take 2012 avionics to counter a threat dating back to 1981. Common sense dictates that the RWR of the Mig will be able to detect the threat without having to stipulate the avionics pedigree, especially as it relates to an A.I. plane.

 

I don't have the data, so you tell me, when did the MIG get RWS updated to include Patriot? I guess there should be facts that ED have?

Or have DCS turned into a guestimate sim?

[GGTharos]

Can you tell me when F-16's got the upgrade to detect S300?

 

I don't have the data, so you tell me, when did the MIG get RWS updated to include Patriot? I guess there should be facts that ED have?

Or have DCS turned into a guestimate sim?

[Buzpilot]

Can you tell me when F-16's got the upgrade to detect S300?

I have no idea, but I'm only a customer.

But I'm expecting ED knows.

 

Oh, you just gave me an idea, I should test this, to see if F-16 AI is just as stupid as the F-15 pilot.

Edited March 23, 2012 by Buzpilot

[GGTharos]

Ok, I'll stop with the hinting and tell you flat out: Most of the stuff concerning RWRs is classified. Most of what any of us know comes from a few scarce sources. All really interesting information about these things, including the actual symbols they show you, are locked away in a vault with access permitted on a need-to-know basis.

 

I have no idea, but I'm only a customer.

But I'm expecting ED knows.

[159th_Viper]

I have no idea, but I'm only a customer.

But I'm expecting ED knows.....

 

You are quite right.

 

You are also required to trust that the people to attended to the code actually know what they are doing and modelled the planes to accord with RL as far as possible. That said, to err is human and if mistakes were made, please point them out with supporting facts/documentation and the like. Until then, kindly refrain from finding fault where you admit that you have no idea in the first instance.