f22 Raptor- Hypoxia raptor cough- 60 minutes

[MadMonkey]

 

 

Interesting

[marcos]

So it's making people sick?

[Pyroflash]

Interesting

 

This is an old issue and most indications point to a contamination/malfunction of the F-22A's OBOGS system.

 

So it's making people sick?

 

Kind of, the issue being reported is one of a contaminated oxygen supply which is causing Hypoxic effects in the pilots. because of the contaminated air, some other symptoms may present themselves, but the main issue is the lack of air being absorbed by the pilots. If you want to know what this means in terms of medicine, go to these two links from the FAA, and they will provide some very important details.

 

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/topics_of_interest/hypoxia/

 

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/hypoxia.pdf

 

The AOPA also has some wonderfully helpful brochures for people who are relative new to the subject as well.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pyroflash

[MadMonkey]

maybe old news to some but others not so much.

 

yes there have apparently been cases of pilots that have been suffering hypoxia

from some form of unknown cause.

 

after the military gov has spent astronomical costs on it's funding doesn't feel there's any

reason to worry about the pilots welfare.

 

at any rate my guess is after the whistle blowing pilots complained & acted against

oath of secrecy bet they are now flying a desk somewhere awful.

[Pyroflash]

at any rate my guess is after the whistle blowing pilots complained & acted against

oath of secrecy bet they are now flying a desk somewhere awful.

 

No, there is no oath of secrecy that prevents them from taking up potential safety issues that could result in the failure of their mission. In fact, in the aviation world, it is encouraged that pilots and maintenance crews report potential incidents up the chain before they result in hazards. The real triggers of these investigations, as well as the anger behind the hazards were the crashes that happened as a result of the pilots blacking out from lack of oxygen.

after the military gov has spent astronomical costs on it's funding doesn't feel there's any

reason to worry about the pilots welfare.

 

No, in fact, Lockheed Martin and the USAF are looking very heavily into trying to resolve this issue as quickly as possible in order to return the F-22A fleet to full operation status. The issue is even more important because there are fears that it could further complicate F-35 production (the problem could also be present in the F-35 as well) if it is left unchecked.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pyroflash

[MadMonkey]

No, there is no oath of secrecy that prevents them from taking up potential safety issues

 

ever heard of the Manhattan project?

 

Sacrifice of Few for the Good of Many

 

I would presume that when dealing with flying new technology around there would be

especially when dealing with touchy matters of our national security.

 

what they good planes no work? nows chance.. attack!

 

you get my point.

[Pyroflash]

ever heard of the Manhattan project?

 

Sacrifice of Few for the Good of Many

 

I would presume that when dealing with flying new technology around there would be

especially when dealing with touchy matters of our national security.

 

what they good planes no work? nows chance.. attack!

 

you get my point.

 

No, I don't get what you mean.

 

The aircraft still works, and the pilots can still fly them happily without many issues, MOST of the time.

 

And the assumption that the military would sacrifice its members just because of a problem is absurd. The only issue I can see the Air Force having is with the F-22A guard pilots who refused to fly because of the safety risks, in which case I can't really blame them, and they have the right and final say in whether or not to take off. Though the issue was known both internally and especially externally after the USAF grounded its fleet last year.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pyroflash

[MadMonkey]

I don't blame them either they probably felt they were left with no other choice

so as far as going to the senator perhaps a smart move, however sharing info

with the media though I do not feel that was necessary and a bad judgment call.

 

some things are best left kept secret until after the issue has been resolved

or due to unfortunate circumstances that is really an important matter.

 

anyways.. good talk and sorry I don't agree with all that you are saying. :thumbup:

[Pyroflash]

Well, they must have felt as if they were being persecuted for actions which they believed themselves to have the right to make, and given that the issue was already made public, I see where they were coming from seeking public and federal protection. Seeing as nothing that wasn't already known was revealed, there shouldn't be any issue with them seeking political protection, especially if it was warranted. Keep in mind that if they are flying F-22A's to begin with, they probably took their jobs quite seriously, and weren't looking for any attention.

 

If you look at what I am saying, I am not passing any judgement in either direction, but instead providing justification for their actions, be them right or wrong.

 

At any rate though, whether it was a good choice or not, I believe it is up to the involved pilots to make that decision, and not us; since ultimately they will have to take responsibility for their own actions. One can only hope that they uphold their decisions with honor and integrity instead of trying to defame any party. However in that respect, there are certain tales that only time can put an end to.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pyroflash

[MadMonkey]

Well, some times when you feel as if you are persecuted for doing what you believe is right, and given that the issue was already made public, I see where they were coming from seeking public and federal protection. Seeing as nothing that wasn't already known was revealed, there shouldn't be any issue with them seeking political protection, especially if it was warranted. Keep in mind that if they are flying F-22A's to begin with, they probably took their jobs quite seriously, and weren't looking for any attention.

 

I agree with most of that except for the end part, 60 minutes is wanting to draw attention.

 

and what I meant below with my very bad Chinese accent

 

<edit> *Snip* rules noted </edit>

 

china is not exactly our friends lately

Edited August 21, 2012 by =MadMonkey=
*snip* removed to obey rule

[Pyroflash]

I agree with most of that except for the end part, 60 minutes is wanting to draw attention.

 

and what I meant below with my very bad Chinese accent

 

http://defensetech.org/2010/12/28/chinas-carrier-killer-ballistic-missiles-are-operational/

 

 

 

china is not exactly our friends lately

 

Sorry, I should have phrased my comment differently to say that while the media involvement was designed to draw attention to the matter, it probably wasn't out of some delusional desire to garner personal fame.

 

As for the whole China thing.. huh? :huh:

 

Was this meant for another thread perhaps?

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pyroflash

[MadMonkey]

Was this meant for another thread perhaps?

 

no you responded before i had a chance to add it all into a spoiler

 

i accidentally hit submit reply rather then preview post..

 

check the spoiler and the link at the very top and you will know what i meant below

where you commented no i dont know what you mean.

 

to clarify my point in regarding such things that should remain secrets

dealing with f-22 pilots and f-22 setbacks and then the reasons

behind such reasons follow up with all the vids & info.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2146283/Chinas-stealth-jet-goes-strength-strength-U-S-air-technology-falters-just-Chinese-rip-off.html

Edited August 20, 2012 by =MadMonkey=
fixed link

[Pyroflash]

I meant that the pilot was probably looking to gather attention to the facts rather than to create a name for himself.

 

And no, I still don't get what you were trying to say with the China thing. It really doesn't make sense in the context of a problem with Oxygen systems.

 

At any rate, 1.7.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pyroflash

[marcos]

At the end of the day a pilot blabbing about the problem affects the military a whole lot less than a crashed F-22 and a dead pilot as a result of the problem not being reported.

[marcos]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2146283/Chinas-stealth-jet-goes-strength-strength-U-S-air-technology-falters-just-Chinese-rip-off.html

That Chinese plane actually looks more like the F-22 from the F-29 Retaliator Amiga 500 computer game of the early '90s, which I believe was what Lockheed's original draft looked like in the late '80s.

 

The Chinese aircraft has a way smaller wing area and doesn't really look too similar to the present day F-22.

Edited August 20, 2012 by marcos

[Pyroflash]

No, don't encourage talk about other countries in this thread please. If anything, it should be moved to a separate for this separate issue, if not dropped altogether. My reference to 1.7 if you didn't get it, was to rule 1.7, as that's exactly the rule talks about those videos were going to lead to. Especially the one about the Chinese video game. Again, if this stuff needs to be talked about, lets do it in another thread where it doesn't end up sidetracking the current discussion (which TBH, is also unnecessary since it has been talked about in other threads).

Edited August 20, 2012 by Pyroflash

[Pilotasso]

its funny that the aircraft too so much flack and in the end it was just a problem with the oxygen system filters...

[RIPTIDE]

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2146283/Chinas-stealth-jet-goes-strength-strength-U-S-air-technology-falters-just-Chinese-rip-off.html

The Daily Mail is considered a Tabloid this side of the pond, not worth the paper it's hardcopy is written on. Some of us refer to it as the Daily Hate, given it's long publishing history. :thumbup:

[MadMonkey]

done & done

 

regarding upset references to rules & off topic statements.

 

for the record

 

I am explaining why I did not think it is a good idea for military personnel to openly discuss

problems with the media.. to be more specific without going too in depth but you clearly did

not understand my drift and so i followed up with more examples..

 

they happen to be about a particular country yes and so I will yank that content out

just for the sake of following ed's rules.. no point in leaving it up anyway because

you didn't get the message.. that unfriendly's watch tv too?

 

the discussion was on topic talking about the u.s. and the f22 pilots

as for the other videos I will remove just for the sake of obeying rules that's fine.

 

as for the other discussions in this forums about f-22's they were not talking

about these pilots.

 

as always everyone has their own opinion on what is write and what is

wrong just like the pilots and just like our friendly disagreements. :D

 

I do care about the pilots safety & given the chance lay down my own life to protect any one of them

just like they do the same for us on a daily basis. ..so do not get me wrong in any of this.

 

I just feel they should follow the military protocols and the chain of command by filling out reports or complaints

to the proper authority like everyone else.

Edited August 21, 2012 by =MadMonkey=
takes me time to think about things sometimes.

[Pyroflash]

I just feel they should follow the military protocols and the chain of command by filling out reports or complaints

to the proper authority like everyone else.

 

Proper "military protocol" is what is causing them issues to begin with, so I hardly think that this case can be handled like most problems. And the point I was trying to make is that what any of us feel is pretty irrelevant. The pilots did what they did, and without being able to read minds, I can no more speculate on what they did or for what reasons than I can stop the energy death of the universe between now and the next three seconds.

 

So, that being said, I do not disagree with you, I am simply pointing out that you don't have a lot of the facts needed to make an impartial decision on whether or not the pilots were right or wrong in their decisions.

 

And as far as the whole Chinese thing goes, the Chinese (and the rest of the world) knew that the F-22A was having issues long before these pilots said anything. Public knowledge of the fleet's grounding was almost immediate, that was last year. The pilots came out because they felt like their safety was threatened, and released no private knowledge of anything when they did it. So that being said, I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that their statements threatened our national security.

 

Also, China is hardly hostile. They might be a threat, but then again so is India, Russia, etc. Openly hostile countries are to my knowledge limited to the DPRK for the moment.

Edited August 22, 2012 by Pyroflash

[marcos]

Surely Lockheed have to fix the issue under 'warrantee' for free anyway?

[EtherealN]

Depends on contract. Warranties as you and I usually know them are something that is there to protect the customer that would otherwise be powerless and practically without means to find recourse. Military projects, on the other hand, are a much more complicated matter where the contracting nation and contractor(s) co-operate on a project. I would imagine that some things have warranty-style clauses, other things don't.

[marcos]

Surely there's a clause in law on the sale of dangerously defective goods anyway. You can't sell an item that's inherently dangerous to its user in its intended use regardless of the contract.

[Pyroflash]

Most likely not. There are bound to be kinks in any project of this size, whether they are revealed during testing or not is a completely different issue. Plus LHM is fixing the problem, but warranty or not, someone has to pay for it.

[BladeLWS]

I just can't see why the problem has yet to be identified. The USAF needs to take a plane that has had the problem out of service, tear it apart, and test each and every component from the engines to the o-rings at different altitude pressures. There is no reason why this is taking YEARS to fix. Either that or Lockheed needs to engineer and replace the system with one from a F-15 or F-16, atleast those work!