Pedal talk again

[Echo38]

So there seem to be three manufacturers of simming pedals which can be considered "mainstream," that is, having a significant percentage of simmers as customers. These are Saitek, CH, and Logitech. The two models of pedals I've seen by Saitek have pedals spaced widely apart, as real fighters' pedals are. CH and Logitech pedals are both set much closer together than are those on real fighters, and are instead approximately of distance found on civilian aircraft such as the Cessna 152 and airliners.

 

There's a reason, you see, why all real fighters (all of the hundreds I've seen, anyway) from any era have wide-set pedals; it's the same reason a man stands with his feet apart when expecting to be shoved, or when attempting to maintain balance. A wide base improves stability, and in an aircraft, this wide spacing of pedals improves potential precision. In short, in a fighter, one wants a "fighter's stance" and not a "ballerina's stance."

 

Regardless of the reason, I'm looking for well-made and precise pedals (so Hall sensors are a requirement, as opposed to potentiometers) which are wide-set like a real fighter. Simped used to make pedals which, by all evidence, fit this bill, but these are no longer being manufactured. A few forum searches turned up a Russian pedal maker called VKB, but they don't even have a functioning web site that I can find. So what are my options? Right now, the only maker of wide-set pedals which I can find is Saitek, and they appear to use potentiometers instead of Hall sensors. (They also extensively use plastic in their construction instead of metal.) What else is there at present?

Edited September 5, 2012 by Echo38

[Chain]

My requirements for new pedals are the same as yours. Does anyone know where to get more info about these russian pedals?

 

Thanks.

[Cali]

CH pedals are fine, even if they are close together. I've used them for over 8-9 years and they are precise. I have also flown in a F-16 and they didn't feel any different to me at least. Good luck on whatever you choose. I like CH stuff because I know the quality is top notch and I can combine all CH stuff into one, so the game isn't seeing 3-6 different controllers.

[Echo38]

CH pedals are fine, even if they are close together. I've used them for over 8-9 years and they are precise.

 

They are not nearly precise enough for my purposes, as I explained here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1544647&postcount=6

 

Also, the wiring and/or pots go bad about once per year. The plastic is sturdy (for plastic, anyway), but that's literally the only good thing I can say about the quality. Really, even the fact that they're plastic is a minus in my book, because over the years they get more sloppy as the plastic wears out; I want my next pair of pedals to be metal.

 

I have also flown in a F-16 and they didn't feel any different to me at least.

 

The pedals in a real F-16 have about 3 times the spacing that the CH pedals have. This is true of every real fighter I've sat in or seen inside the cockpit of; even the old Great War kites had their rudder bar sized in such a manner that they placed one's feet that far apart. Any era ... F/A-18, F-16, F-15, A-10, P-51, P-38, Me-109, P-39, P-47, SPAD S.XIII, Fokker Dr.I, Nieuport C.17, the list goes on and on and on. I've never seen a real fighter which had pedals close together like the CH pedals, or even only twice that far apart. Always a minimum of two times the distance of the CH pedals. I'm sure you can find some exception (probably an experimental fighter, or one which was not widely produced, or something), but very nearly 100% of all fighters ever made have good, wide-set pedals, like the Simpeds rather than like the CH.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Echo38

[joey45]

Logitech have only one set of pedals and they are bundled with a stick and throttle.. not separate so it's only CH and Saitek..

[Echo38]

Even if the Logitech pedals came alone, they aren't a decent option, for the same reason that the CH aren't. I've also heard from all of my friends who have the Logitech pedals that they break down very quickly (so far it's always been within a year of normal use). But, durability aside, the spacing alone is a deal-breaker. For me, the spacing's gotta be like a real fighter, not like an airliner. No negotiation. ; )

Edited September 5, 2012 by Echo38

[Sokol1_br]

Russian made pedals - metal construction, HALL/MaRS sensor.

 

VKB: http://www.vkb-pro.ru/ Probably the most advanced sim pedal ever made.

http://www.vkb-pro.ru/index.php/produktsiya-vkb/pedali-mk-20-3

 

 

 

Ac-3xg: http://aviasim-control.ru

 

Bauer BRD and Mi8 (AFAIK sold in kit, require final assembly): http://avia-sim.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=714

 

For helicopter control, seens that Bauer models is the best option, since they have a "soft" center.

 

Sokol1

Edited September 6, 2012 by Sokol1_br

[Echo38]

For helicopter control, seens that Bauer models is the best option, since they have a "soft" center.

 

A soft center would be best for fixed-wing, too, unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "soft." Real aircraft (direct linkage ones, anyway--dunno about FBW) don't have a "click" in the center. At least, none of the ones I've flown. The airflow pushes the rudder toward center, and as you approach center, the force smoothly decreases until there's none left. That's what you mean by "soft," right? Smooth decrease with no click?

[Cali]

They are not nearly precise enough for my purposes, as I explained here: http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1544647&postcount=6

 

Also, the wiring and/or pots go bad about once per year. The plastic is sturdy (for plastic, anyway), but that's literally the only good thing I can say about the quality. Really, even the fact that they're plastic is a minus in my book, because over the years they get more sloppy as the plastic wears out; I want my next pair of pedals to be metal.

 

Sounds like you got some bad stuff. Like I said I've had mine for 8-9 years and they still work perfectly fine. Not bad for 8-9 year old wiring and pots. With any product you are going to get some bad apples, but CH is known for it's quality.

 

 

The pedals in a real F-16 have about 3 times the spacing that the CH pedals have. This is true of every real fighter I've sat in or seen inside the cockpit of; even the old Great War kites had their rudder bar sized in such a manner that they placed one's feet that far apart. F/A-18, F-16, F-15, A-10, P-51, P-38, Me-109, P-39, P-47, SPAD S.XIII, Fokker Dr.I, Nieuport C.17, the list goes on and on and on. I've never seen a real fighter which had pedals close together like the CH pedals, or even only twice that far apart. Always a minimum of three times the distance of the CH pedals. I'm sure you can find some exception (probably an experimental fighter, or one which was not widely produced, or something), but very nearly 100% of all fighters ever made have good, wide-set pedals, like the Simpeds rather than like the CH.

 

I don't know what you are trying to say here, I have flown a F-16, I have sat in a F-15 and A-10. I worked on F-16's for 12 years and A-10's for 6 years. Image how many times I sat in those cockpits? I know how the pedals are in those jets. From my experience in flying the F-16 the CH pedals are no different to me. I have no problem with me controlling them and they do whatever I want them to do with precision. That is after 8-9 years of hard use. I may sound like I work for CH, but I don't, they have been that good to me and a bunch of other friends throughout the years of abuse. Sure we have complained to CH and making them wider or making a new throttle, but you can't beat that they work well. Have you flown in a real fighter jet, do you know how they feel when you use them? It doesn't matter what I say, you are the one that are going to use whatever you buy in the end. I really don't care if you don't buy CH cause I get nothing out of it. Whatever you get I hope you are happy with them and I truly mean that. I would love to see you flying in the virtual skies.

[Echo38]

I don't know what you are trying to say here, I have flown a F-16, I have sat in a F-15 and A-10. I worked on F-16's for 12 years and A-10's for 6 years. Image how many times I sat in those cockpits? I know how the pedals are in those jets. From my experience in flying the F-16 the CH pedals are no different to me.

 

What I am trying to say here is that the real F-16's pedal-to-pedal distance is much more than that of the CH pedals.

 

 

 

Sounds like you got some bad stuff.

 

You could say that. I've owned 4 pieces of CH equipment, and 2 came defective. My friend owned 2, and both came defective. That's a came-defective rate of 66% over a sampling of 6 units. I was more than a little peeved at all of the glowing reviews claiming that CH made great stuff, after I bought some and had to waste about a hundred dollars shipping it back and forth to CH for "free" repairs under warranty.

 

Why did I keep buying their stuff, if it was defective? Well, for one thing, at the time, I thought that it was an unfortunate pair of exceptions. Also, I wasn't then aware of any better options. And they're still--despite their faults--well above average (what with there not being many decent options for flight simming equipment in today's market). If you're happy with them, you're happy with them. If you're considering buying, you've been warned. Take it or leave it.

 

Really, the CH-praise is rather off-topic--I specifically stated in the O.P. that I was not interested in any more CH Products, so recommending CH here is a little bit uncalled for. The entire quality issue aside, they're simply too close together compared to those of a fighter. More to the point, they're simply too damn close together for my purposes. Sorry if I seem a bit cross, but ... well, I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition!

Edited September 6, 2012 by Echo38

[Cali]

I know the distance in the 16 is wider then CH, I worked on F-16's for 12 years. I didn't know what you were saying cause you went out in left field on me. It sucks you got some bad stuff, it can happen with everything you buy ask Warthog owners, Saitek owners and Logitech owners.......sometimes you get a bad apple and it your case 2 bad apples. I'm 5/5 a.k.a 100% with CH stuff. I just hope the next purchase you make is a good one.

[Sokol1_br]

That's what you mean by "soft," right? Smooth decrease with no click?

 

Yes, without noticeable center "click" present in any other pedals (CH, Saitek's, VKB...), since this model use a center cam:

 

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8205/molav.jpg

 

Whether due to a detent or the spring, the effect is that very fine motions are nigh-impossible because the "click" fights you until you push hard--then it suddenly gives way, so you get maybe a 2-millimeter motion instead of the 0.5 millimeter motion you wanted.

 

Still not perfect for heli, but better than system with center detent.

Probable one with some type of damper is the ideal - like in the

(RiP) Tarmac Aces Rudder Pedal.

 

Sokol1

[joey45]

Even if the Logitech pedals came alone, they aren't a decent option, for the same reason that the CH aren't. I've also heard from all of my friends who have the Logitech pedals that they break down very quickly (so far it's always been within a year of normal use)...

 

 

Mine are still working fine.*touch wood*

[Echo38]

Thanks, Sokol. There isn't any reason why these heli sim-pedals wouldn't be suited for fixed-wing sim, is there?