Ракеты в DCS

[FoxAlfa]

18 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

I don't have to extrapolate for anything.  These are from the manuals for using these missiles, and they correspond with DLZs seen on HuDs in videos as well.  

 

 

 

Please keep in mind that this are recommended ranges for the pilots, the factors like speed of the missile at then range, manevre potential and PK, etc are not completely clear for them.  

 

The page sylkhan posted is from the Yugo manual, these charts are from Russian manuals, so it just might be that both 50 km range is possible with certain factors and this is for sure possible with other factors... in the end we all agree we need CFD.... Chizh, you, rest of the people.... and this discussion will keep going in circles till it's done...

Edited January 30, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[sylkhan]

18 minutes ago, Chizh said:

What you mean in with lock-on, w/o lock-on?

"The R-27R (R-27ER) can be fire before target lock-on is achieved.
In this case the missile receives mid-course guidance via a special link system to compensate for the target's movement until it comes within lock-on range.
The mid-course correction feature increase the effective "kill range" by some 20 km in pursuit mode and 60 km in head on mode."

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by sylkhan

[GGTharos]

7 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

Please keep in mind that this are recommended ranges for the pilots, the factors like speed of the missile at then range, manevre potential and PK, etc are not completely clear.  

 

Going off of memory, are defined at 0.7Pk vs a non-maneuvering target.  There's also an R-27ER fly-out graph (time-to-distace-and- speed) which supports these.  So, you keep in mind that these ranges match the DLZs we see on videos.  Sure, maybe those software loads are sanitized and the truth is a bit different, but this is the best information we have.

5 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

"The R-27R (R-27ER) can be fire before target lock-on is achieved.
In this case the missile receives mid-course guidance via a special link system to compensate for the target's movement until it comes within lock-on range.
The mid-course correction feature increase the effective "kill range" by some 20 km in pursuit mode and 60 km in head on mode."

 

It means the seeker lock on.   Can you launch a sparrow at a fighter 100km away?  No, because the sparrow has no missile data-link and cannot see that target - it needs to lock on right after it's thrown off the aircraft and out of the aircraft's radar mainlobe.  The R-27 has a data-link that allows you to launch it further than the seeker can see an illuminated target.

It's also irrelevant in practice because you'll almost always be launching it inside a range at which the seeker can see its target (this range is pretty big for a PD radar, unless the seeker's well ... just not that good at seeing things! )

In other words, what you're reading has nothing to do with the missile's ability to fly.

Edited January 30, 2021 by GGTharos

[FoxAlfa]

I think in end we all agree... I just hope ED's higher up give a go ahead for CFD to be done sooner than latter...

Edited January 30, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[sylkhan]

20 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 Can you launch a sparrow at a fighter 100km away?

And ??

 

20 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 No, because the sparrow has no missile data-link and cannot see that target - it needs to lock on right after it's thrown off the aircraft and out of the aircraft's radar mainlobe.

I don't care about sparrow, it's not a reference, we are talking about R-27.

 

20 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

The R-27 has a data-link that allows you to launch it further than the seeker can see an illuminated target.

It's also irrelevant in practice because you'll almost always be launching it inside a range at which the seeker can see its target (this range is pretty big for a PD radar, unless the seeker's well ... just not that good at seeing things! )

 

Stop making your own interpretation of things you don't know.

23 minutes ago, FoxAlfa said:

 Chizh, you, rest of the people.... and this discussion will keep going in circles till it's done...

 

 

Oh, i lost all hope since a long time, to have something coherent/realistic for my beloved russian aircrafts

Edited January 30, 2021 by sylkhan

[GGTharos]

 

1 minute ago, sylkhan said:

I don't care about sparrow, it's not a reference, we are talking about R-27.

 

I know that you don't care to know anything, the explanation was on point - the only reason you don't care is because you just want to peddle your fantasy instead of understanding what's going on.

 

1 minute ago, sylkhan said:

Stop making your own interpretation of things you don't know.

 

You're the one making things up.  You're presented with information that you choose to ignore, you make things up because you don't understand what it is you're reading - all that stemming from reading one little tidbid instead of all of the information available -  then you get all huffy because you know you got it wrong.   You don't successfully employ an R-27 without locking your radar onto a target - it's needed to tune the missile to the radar, to upload initial target information and for the radar to generate the M-link (do you get this?  no m-link if you don't launch on a locked target).  So all that's left to take care of with respect to lock/no lock is the actual seeker itself locking onto a target.

[TotenDead]

1 час назад, GGTharos сказал:

 

There are also timeline tactics available in manuals - and although they are unclass (though I'm not sure you'll be able to find the manuals), those timelines don't support the idea that the R-27ER out-ranges the 120.   Such details are hidden in the vault, but again - the basic unclass stuff that you can find has AMRAAM shots being taken at 20nm subsonic and medium altitude - and that little details is in individual aircraft manuals and in tactics manuals.   This equates to a range of about 36km, between 6000-8000m and I doubt that it's a low pk shot.

 

Now if you consider that the R-27ER Rmax at those ranges is between 45 and 55km, do you believe they'll be taking shots much before that 36km vs maneuverable targets?

Речь шла не о поражении маневрирующих целей, а о максимальной дальности пуска. На счёт "не секретных" инструкций (руководств) - коли уж они не секретные, то выложи их в этой теме. У тебя же они есть, верно? 

[GGTharos]

3 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

It was not about hitting maneuvering targets, but about the maximum launch range. At the expense of "not secret" instructions (manuals) - if they are not secret, then post them in this thread. You have them, right? 

 

Doesn't mean I can post them but maybe you can find some of them.  You wouldn't be the first or second to do so.

[Chizh]

40 минут назад, sylkhan сказал:

"The R-27R (R-27ER) can be fire before target lock-on is achieved.
In this case the missile receives mid-course guidance via a special link system to compensate for the target's movement until it comes within lock-on range.
The mid-course correction feature increase the effective "kill range" by some 20 km in pursuit mode and 60 km in head on mode."

 

 

R-27R/ER missiles are always launched with a lock on the trajectory (LOAL). Even at close range, lockon occurs after launch.

[sylkhan]

8 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

I know that you don't care to know anything, the explanation was on point - the only reason you don't care is because you just want to peddle your fantasy instead of understanding what's going on.

Once again you do your own interpretation of things, and once again, you are wrong.

Your explanation was not on point, like you said, because sparrow has nothing to do in the debate, we are talking about R-27 who has some technology that you don't have any idea.

You try to analyse russian hardware without real knowlegde of technolgy they use.

You have the wrong concept that if it can't be done by US nobody can do it, but you are totally wrong, you are just in an illusional world.

22 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

You don't successfully employ an R-27 without locking your radar onto a target - it's needed to tune the missile to the radar, to upload initial target information and for the radar to generate the M-link (do you get this?  no m-link if you don't launch on a locked target).  So all that's left to take care of with respect to lock/no lock is the actual seeker itself locking onto a target.

Once again your are wrong because ignorant.

The R-27 can be launch without lock-on, period.

6 minutes ago, Chizh said:

R-27R/ER missiles are always launched with a lock on the trajectory (LOAL). Even at close range, lockon occurs after launch.

My sources says otherwise, but no problem

[Chizh]

52 минуты назад, FoxAlfa сказал:

Please keep in mind that this are recommended ranges for the pilots, the factors like speed of the missile at then range, manevre potential and PK, etc are not completely clear for them.  

Everything is clear described there. The fighter and the target fly at the same speed, at the same height, without maneuvering, straight and level.

 

Цитата

The page sylkhan posted is from the Yugo manual, these charts are from Russian manuals, so it just might be that both 50 km range is possible with certain factors and this is for sure possible with other factors... in the end we all agree we need CFD.... Chizh, you, rest of the people.... and this discussion will keep going in circles till it's done...

 

50 km range for R-27R is possible at high Mach and altitude only.

[GGTharos]

13 minutes ago, sylkhan said:

Once again your are wrong because ignorant.

The R-27 can be launch without lock-on, period.

 

It's funny that you call me ignorant, so let's consider how these things work, for the R-27 launched by Su-27S or MiG-29A/B/C specifically:

 

You lock your radar onto a target and whole bunch of stuff happens but we're mainly interested in:

1) Target look-angle is transferred to missile

2) Target doppler is transferred to missile

3) Target range is transferred to missile

4) Either guidance waveform of m-link waveform is initiated, depending on target range

5) The missile is ejected and executes initial flight commands to:

  a) fly to the target

  b) aim the seeker at the target

6) The missile exits the shooter's radar interference area in a very short time after #5 and commences searching for the target using information from #1,2,3

7) We assume it finds the target and guides to it (there are things that it does if it doesn't find it, but we don't care for now)

 

Now lets shoot a missile without the radar locked on, assuming the system even allows you to do this:

You don't get information #1,2,3 uploaded for the missile

#4 doesn't happen because the weapon system didn't communicate with that missile and as far as its concerned, you're trying to jettison it

#5 and 6doesn't happen, it's a straight-out fly-out

 

Assuming you now lock your radar on target and:

i) target is still in front of the missile, so in the seeker FoV

ii) missile is in search mode (why would it be?  as far as it knows it was jettisoned, but ok)

 

Since you lack #1,2,3 information, and #4 never happened because there was no communication with the missile, said missile will now throw the range and doppler gates open and lock onto whatever is illuminated by the radar like ... a chaff cloud, mountain, if you're lucky, your target.   But that's assuming the missile will even guide without the injected guidance signal.

 

So, what is it that you want to tell me I'm ignoring?  I'm not that familiar with this weapon system, but it is known that these are the basic steps that it performs.  So tell me what i don't know.

Edited January 30, 2021 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

30 minutes ago, TotenDead said:

Речь шла не о поражении маневрирующих целей, а о максимальной дальности пуска. На счёт "не секретных" инструкций (руководств) - коли уж они не секретные, то выложи их в этой теме. У тебя же они есть, верно? 

 

Just so you know, I didn't forget you nor do I intend to hide information from you.  One document you should be able to easily access - and yes, this is basic instruction:

 

https://www.cnatra.navy.mil/local/docs/pat-pubs/P-825.pdf

 

PDF page 180:

 

[FoxAlfa]

43 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Everything is clear described there. The fighter and the target fly at the same speed, at the same height, without maneuvering, straight and level

Not correct, fighter is flying 900kmh and the target 700kmh in the first case, and 1100kmh and 900kmh in the second case, so not the same speed. 

(EDIT, if you ment constant speed, then yes, I guess I misunderstood the translation)

 

But that is not the point, the point is we have no idea at which speed missile arrives at the line? does the missile stall as soon as it reaches the line? What safety margine the engineers build into it the graph? 

 

Graphs are recommendation to a pilot with calculation and margins added into so the pilot doesn't have to think about them, not wind tunnel data. 

 

 

 

I do think ED is doing a respectable job with the missile rework, just doing it one at the time and years apart will cause this situations. 

 

When single or two missiles get a rework and get few miles bigger effective range due to more accurate aero or autopilot modeling and without standardization of all missiles insight,

people will perceive it as buff or nerf to that missile ,and for sure you are not in the business of nerfing and buffing, but doing world beating realistic stuff

 

My biggest worry is once Devs get back into half of year or year down the line, they are going to do something different on the missiles they will be reworking then, it's the nature of software development... and the vicious circle continues...

Edited January 30, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[Chizh]

35 минут назад, FoxAlfa сказал:

Not correct, fighter is flying 900kmh and the target 700kmh in the first case, and 1100kmh and 900kmh in the second case, so not the same speed. 

Yes, you are correct.

 

 

[Max1mus]

3 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

There are also timeline tactics available in manuals - and although they are unclass (though I'm not sure you'll be able to find the manuals), those timelines don't support the idea that the R-27ER out-ranges the 120.   Such details are hidden in the vault, but again - the basic unclass stuff that you can find has AMRAAM shots being taken at 20nm subsonic and medium altitude - and that little details is in individual aircraft manuals and in tactics manuals.   This equates to a range of about 36km, between 6000-8000m and I doubt that it's a low pk shot.

 

Those timelines in fact do suggest the opposite - why would they go to 6-8000m and only shoot this late? If the DCS missile range gap between 120 and ER is correct, then the best strategy is like in DCS, to climb to 40-50.000ft, fire long before the ER carrier can, and win the fight by just pressing forward without any kind of defense needed. No timeline needed either. You can fight it like a SARH fight and win.

 

You would only start the fight this low and shoot this late if the longer missiles forced you to perform some maneuvering prior to the shot.

 

The tactic suggested by Klarsnow only works against horribly inexperienced people on public server, and even there he admits that it only works "80% of the time". Because it assumes that the enemies dont have enough braincells to sort properly, or it assumes a 2v1 situation, which can be won even with F-5/MiG-21.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Max1mus

[BlackPixxel]

I haven't seen the flyout charts posted here, so here they are. For the R-27R I only found the low res version.

 

They show the flighttime and how far the missile will seperate from the fighter if the fighter would keep flying straight with constant speed.

 

It should be roughly equal to the rear aspect ranges from the launch zone chart.

 

 

I am unsure if the seperation value is the maximum seperation from the fighter during the whole flight, or the seperation from the fighter at the specified flight time.

I think it is the latter.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Max1mus]

21 minutes ago, Chizh said:

Yes, you are correct.

 

 

 

But why are the DCS AIM-120Bs able to hit things way beyond those numbers (+33-50%), as the red and green mark on my picture indicate? If it is as you said, a nonmaneuvering target?

 

(For reference, this picture)

https://m.imgur.com/aGuRlMH

Edited January 30, 2021 by Max1mus

[BlackPixxel]

@Chizh

 

Could you also upload the scan of the opposite site of the page? I think we have never seen the R-27T chart before.

 

And do you also have a chart for the R-27ET?

 

Thank you!

 

 

[Max1mus]

Do AIM-120A loft? If yes, the posted chart by Chizh from the MiG-29 manual does not work in DCS (DCS AMRAAM too long ranged up high)

[BlackPixxel]

They should not loft, and even without loft they greatly exceed the chart.

 

Just maddog a 120B on a target so they don't loft to check the range.

 

Also the rear hemisphere ranges are greatly exceeded.

[GGTharos]

56 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

Those timelines in fact do suggest the opposite - why would they go to 6-8000m and only shoot this late?

 

Sure, let's analyze this.

First:  This is USN, so we're talking typically subsonic, medium altitudes.

Second:  This is basic intercept training, so whatever it is that those timelines represent, it's not the classified stuff that's in the vault. This is timeline training (how to use the timeline) and not missile training, but it does tell you a tiny bit of something.  The timelines we don't get to see can be different based on a lot of things.

Third:  20nm is far from 'late'.  IRL engagements have been closer.

 

56 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

If the DCS missile range gap between 120 and ER is correct, then the best strategy is like in DCS, to climb to 40-50.000ft, fire long before the ER carrier can, and win the fight by just pressing forward without any kind of defense needed. No timeline needed either. You can fight it like a SARH fight and win.

 

But you're just not going to get there with an F-18 ... even F-16s and F-15s won't be doing that on your average CAP (but may in different plans/circumstances).  Raptors will.

Understand that in DCS we don't care about how long we stay on station, and how much fuel we burn - we also don't have an area of responsibility.  This is not the case IRL and you're not going to go from a 28000' CAP altitude to 40-50k and mach 1.5 that fast.  And assuming you have enough warning to do this, you might exit your AOR and enter someone else's, or burn too much fuel and not have enough time to stay on station.

 

56 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

You would only start the fight this low and shoot this late if the longer missiles forced you to perform some maneuvering prior to the shot.

 

No. See above.  As well you may be escorting things that are slower, and you may have other timings to consider as well.  IRL is not DCS, you have entire packages and precise timings to deal with.

 

56 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

The tactic suggested by Klarsnow only works against horribly inexperienced people on public server, and even there he admits that it only works "80% of the time". Because it assumes that the enemies dont have enough braincells to sort properly, or it assumes a 2v1 situation, which can be won even with F-5/MiG-21.

 

And yet the biggest problem he mentions is the chaff issue.  He's not saying people don't have enough braincells to sort properly, he says people don't train/practice doing such things, nor it is 2v1 (but if you can, do that) he's staying splitting a 2v2 into two 1v1s ... and there are tactics for all of this but it takes understanding, planning and practice.  Klarsnow is instructed in this, we are not.   It's as if I was telling you of a software design pattern and saying you don't have enough braincells to use it because you haven't been instructed in it.

46 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

@Chizh

 

Could you also upload the scan of the opposite site of the page? I think we have never seen the R-27T chart before.

 

And do you also have a chart for the R-27ET?

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

PM me. 

[Max1mus]

5 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

And yet the biggest problem he mentions is the chaff issue.  He's not saying people don't have enough braincells to sort properly, he says people don't train/practice doing such things, nor it is 2v1 (but if you can, do that) he's staying splitting a 2v2 into two 1v1s ... and there are tactics for all of this but it takes understanding, planning and practice.  Klarsnow is instructed in this, we are not.   It's as if I was telling you of a software design pattern and saying you don't have enough braincells to use it because you haven't been instructed in it.

 

PM me. 

2 seperate 1v1s is even worse. There is absolutely no way to win that against AIM-120s with R-27ER. Unless once again, opponent is inexperienced.

You cant fight AIM-120s with R-27ER at the moment at all in DCS. Ask any real pilot on either side of the fence what he thinks about that.

[dundun92]

59 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

@Chizh

 

Could you also upload the scan of the opposite site of the page? I think we have never seen the R-27T chart before.

 

And do you also have a chart for the R-27ET?

 

Thank you!

 

 

[GGTharos]

17 minutes ago, Max1mus said:

You cant fight AIM-120s with R-27ER at the moment at all in DCS. Ask any real pilot on either side of the fence what he thinks about that.

 

I talk to real pilots very often.  I don't relate their conversations because there's no point - they're not going to come here to 'back me up' and most of the discussed stuff is not published (but it's not like the say anything secret to me either).  One of my co-workers is a former MiG-29A pilot.

The R-27ER is not a competitive platform vs. AIM-120 platform.  It's not useless, it's just better to have better choices.

Edited January 30, 2021 by GGTharos