Ракеты в DCS

[Lamko]

14 минут назад, GGTharos сказал:

Я знаю, что F-15E подобрал Ми-8/17/24 (не помню, какой именно) с расстояния 50 морских миль, когда он приземлился. РЛС на протяжении всего боя находилась в режиме «воздух-воздух». Изначально они собирались использовать боковой обмоток, но как только они поняли, что вертолет приземлился (с помощью прицельной капсулы), они атаковали его бомбой.

 

F-15C подобрали 3 SH-60 с расстояния 40 морских миль после того, как их направили туда с помощью системы АВАКС (так что это не совсем максимальное расстояние, они уже были близки), и продолжили сбивать два вертолета. Да, это было синее на синем.

Понятно. Жаль деталей мало. 

Но цифры я взял не с потолка.
В DCS ми 8 виден с 77 миль. 

https://youtu.be/7wp7qnCMzmc

Спрятаться тут невозможно.

 

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Раньше можно было добавлять  видео , чтобы сразу смотреть без перехода по ссылкам.  Где этот функционал сейчас ??

 

 

Edited February 15, 2021 by Lamko

[GGTharos]

F-18 and F-16 radar are performing much better in range than they should IMHO.

Edited February 15, 2021 by GGTharos

[Chizh]

10 часов назад, Lamko сказал:

Понятно. Жаль деталей мало. 

Но цифры я взял не с потолка.
В DCS ми 8 виден с 77 миль. 

https://youtu.be/7wp7qnCMzmc

Спрятаться тут невозможно.

 

Мы уже поправили АВАКС, который больше не будет обнаруживать вертолеты на малых скоростях, на фоне земли. Но если вертолет летит на фоне неба и с крейсерской скоростью - он виден издалека, поскольку его ЭПР весьма высока.

[ZHeN]

уже поправили - в смысле оно будет в следующем обновлении или уже есть в предыдущем ?

 

во всех ракурсах ? даже если вертолёт летит прямиком на авакс ?

 

и что значит "на малых скоростях" - по-вертолётному малых (меньше 100км/ч) или по-самолётному малых (меньше 400км/ч) ?

Edited February 16, 2021 by ZHeN

[TotenDead]

41 минуту назад, Chizh сказал:

Мы уже поправили АВАКС, который больше не будет обнаруживать вертолеты на малых скоростях, на фоне земли. Но если вертолет летит на фоне неба и с крейсерской скоростью - он виден издалека, поскольку его ЭПР весьма высока.

На видео вертушка все же летит нызенько

[Lamko]

1 час назад, Chizh сказал:

 Но если вертолет летит на фоне неба и с крейсерской скоростью - он виден издалека, поскольку его ЭПР весьма высока.

Про небо не совсем понятно.

У самолёта высота 6 км у верта 200 метров.

Ну ладно.

 

 

А вот видео где у вертолёта 17 метров (в той точке высота земли 53) высота при скорости 155 км он обнаруживается ровно на том же расстоянии как по скрипту.

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Ka50  c 62 миль.

UH 74 мили.

 

Авакс это хорошо конечно, но при наличие 2 самолётов с линком в воздухе любой верт это гарантированный труп.

Причём 120с летят в них вполне себе далеко и эффективно.

И если вдруг ваших истребителей отогнали миль на 30 или вас "прикрывает" бук(да и с 300 особого эффекта не создаст), то вас нашинкуют как захотят.

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Вот 30 миль 2 трупа. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Lamko

[Арсений]

13 часов назад, Hoarfrost сказал:

Мы сделаем продувку Р-27 тогда когда появится время. Сейчас по уши загружены текущими задачами.

Боюсь, что когда текущие задачи будут выполнены, появятся новые, и до Р-27 руки так и не дойдут

[Кош]

17 часов назад, BlackPixxel сказал:

 

I am talking about something different.

If the DCS F-15 fires an Aim-7 and the target turns through the notch quick enough, then the radar will keep illuminating the target the whole time. So the missile is guided the whole time, and can hit at any moment.

In the russian aircraft, the lock will instantly transition to OLS as soon as the target enters the notch, and then the missile is no longer guided. In addition to that, the missile will then instantly turn into nearby chaff, even though they are not illuminated. And on top of that, even if there was no chaff and the lock transitions back to radar as soon as the target left the notch, the missile will have done a S-maneuver in the meantime, losing tons of speed.

 

The OLS, that should help the Flanker + R-27 against targets turning through the notch (changing hemisphere) makes it actually much worse in DCS thanks to the 3 reasons mentioned above. The R-27R/ER becomes practially useless in the game unless fired from a distance where the target does not have time to change aspect.

 

Chizh mentioned a while ago that they would change it so that the lock will only transition to OLS if for 4 seconds the target cannot be found again in radar. This would remove the issue in most of the cases, and would be a welcome change.

 

The way it is right now I would rather have no OLS at all, as it is degrading the R-27R/ER PK in multiplayer by alot!

 

There is a whole branch of bugs you have described. This can be broken down to smaller tasks and fixed. In complex that would give a logical working weapons system.

- F-15 time in the notch to lose lock should be found in the documents or approximated from radar physics and logic.

- MiG-29 time in the notch to lose lock and switch to OLS is what I'm struggling to figure out from the docs in free time. Just like time to re-lock-on in radar stt from leading OLS quasi-search.

- turning into unilluminated chaff is a bug, chaff logic should be rewritten and not derived from flares.

- R-27, R-23, R-24 have an analog trajectory extrapolation system they use when loosing lock - this math should be simulated instead of pre-scripted jumps. Also they switch to this mode before impact.

[Chizh]

2 часа назад, ZHeN сказал:

уже поправили - в смысле оно будет в следующем обновлении или уже есть в предыдущем ?

 

во всех ракурсах ? даже если вертолёт летит прямиком на авакс ?

 

и что значит "на малых скоростях" - по-вертолётному малых (меньше 100км/ч) или по-самолётному малых (меньше 400км/ч) ?

 

АВАКС не будет видеть цели ниже радиальной скорости 40 м/с. Это будет в мартовском большом обновлении.

[BlackPixxel]

33 minutes ago, Кош said:

- MiG-29 time in the notch to lose lock and switch to OLS is what I'm struggling to figure out from the docs in free time. Just like time to re-lock-on in radar stt from leading OLS quasi-search.

 

What is actually missing is the fusion of Radar/OLS.

 

Right now it is either radar or OLS.

But when the target turns through the notch, the OLS should track the target while the radar should still emitt the SARH CW homing signal.

There is no reason why the radar would switch off the target illumination signal. The MiG-29B document says that the illumination signal is active for the full lifetime of the missile.

 

The thing with delaying the switch to OLS would just be a temporary solution to solve the flawed game mechanics resulting in an aircraft with OLS having zero chance of hitting a target changing aspect, while aircraft that don't even have OLS will hit those targets.

 

 

Could you explain what you mean with R-23/24/27 switching to extrapolated trajectories before impact? Is this stated in some documents?

I don't think those missiles know when they are about to hit the target, as they are guided from an interrupted CW signal, so they cannot meassure the range to the target.

Edited February 16, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Кош]

1 час назад, BlackPixxel сказал:

 

What is actually missing is the fusion of Radar/OLS.

 

Right now it is either radar or OLS.

But when the target turns through the notch, the OLS should track the target while the radar should still emitt the SARH CW homing signal.

There is no reason why the radar would switch off the target illumination signal. The MiG-29B document says that the illumination signal is active for the full lifetime of the missile.

 

The thing with delaying the switch to OLS would just be a temporary solution to solve the flawed game mechanics resulting in an aircraft with OLS having zero chance of hitting a target changing aspect, while aircraft that don't even have OLS will hit those targets.

 

 

Could you explain what you mean with R-23/24/27 switching to extrapolated trajectories before impact? Is this stated in some documents?

I don't think those missiles know when they are about to hit the target, as they are guided from an interrupted CW signal, so they cannot meassure the range to the target.

 

I'm studying the MiG-29 digital part of the avionics for a month now. So far it seems losing lock is losing lock. As far as I understand it, FCS looks at what sensor has lost the target and switches to the other sensor in search mode. Active OLS search turns radar into quasisearch. Pilot has to move the OLS lock strobe cursor on the target contact and press lock, OLS will slave the radar to this point, and attempt a radar STT lock on what is on the other end of these angles.

This seems to take a very short time, and although needs attention and work from pilot, will let work through the lost lock if the target is still in the missile seeker's FOV. In the pilot's operation instructions part it literally and briefly says - if you lose lock, try locking again.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Кош

[GGTharos]

3 hours ago, Chizh said:

AWACS will not see targets below a radial velocity of 40 m / s. This will be in the March big update.

 

But this is really not correct for helicopters ... if the rotors are spinning, radars should see them at any altitude.   Rotor RCS might be a little lower than the main body but it's really not that small.  I can send you the relevant research/docs if you want.  The typical size of the rotor reflection is anywhere between 2-8m^2.   Not exactly applicable to DCS because DCS simplifies the RCS values - in DCS you might set it to say, 1-2.5 by default.

Edited February 16, 2021 by GGTharos

[Чарик80]

В 1986 г. Боинг начала переоборудовать часть ракет AGM-86B к стандарту AGM-86C. Основным изменением является замена термоядерной БЧ на 900-кг осколочно-фугасную.        В игре же видим  warheads["AGM_86"] = penetrating_warhead(450.0);- если проникающая бч на 450кг то-В ноябре 2001 г. были проведены летные испытания крылатой ракеты AGM-86D Block II, оснащенной новой 540-кг проникающей БЧ AUP (Advanced Unitary Penetrator),так какая же версия АГМ86 в игре?Толи 86С где 900кг ОФ БЧ,толи 86D где вес бч 540кг.

[TotenDead]

1 час назад, GGTharos сказал:

 

But this is really not correct for helicopters ... if the rotors are spinning, radars should see them at any altitude.   Rotor RCS might be a little lower than the main body but it's really not that small.  I can send you the relevant research/docs if you want.  The typical size of the rotor reflection is anywhere between 2-8m^2.   Not exactly applicable to DCS because DCS simplifies the RCS values - in DCS you might set it to say, 1-2.5 by default.

 

Зачем спрашивать? Отправляй сюда

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

On 2/15/2021 at 7:36 AM, Chizh said:

Мы сделаем продувку Р-27 тогда когда появится время. Сейчас по уши загружены текущими задачами. Сорри.

Еще раз повторю. Не стоит ждать от продувок чего-то революционного. 

I'm curious as to why you keep saying that.

The current FM doesn't take into account the 3g pull at maximum range as laid out in the chart since it was treated as an R aero figure when it wasn't, something you acknowledged.

 

You've also mentioned it would get a new more efficient autopilot and the improved drag modeling will mean it retains energy better in turns, which means better effective range against maneuvering targets.

Would you please elucidate as to where exactly is the bad part of the update?

I ask because I'm curious what other aspects of the missile are over modeled.

Edited February 16, 2021 by TaxDollarsAtWork

[BlackPixxel]

6 hours ago, Кош said:

I'm studying the MiG-29 digital part of the avionics for a month now. So far it seems losing lock is losing lock. As far as I understand it, FCS looks at what sensor has lost the target and switches to the other sensor in search mode. Active OLS search turns radar into quasisearch. Pilot has to move the OLS lock strobe cursor on the target contact and press lock, OLS will slave the radar to this point, and attempt a radar STT lock on what is on the other end of these angles.

This seems to take a very short time, and although needs attention and work from pilot, will let work through the lost lock if the target is still in the missile seeker's FOV. In the pilot's operation instructions part it literally and briefly says - if you lose lock, try locking again.

 

 

In the MiG-29 it is a bit different anyway, because the combined Radar/OLS mode only exists in the ZPS setting. I think the OLS of the MiG-29 is simply to weak for anything else.

 

The Su-27 on the other hand can also use the combined mode in the front hemisphere setting.

 

In the combined mode, if one sensor loses the target, it will be tracked by the other one if possible. Nowhere does it say that the target illumination channel will turn off if the tracking transitions to OLS.

[Кош]

1 час назад, BlackPixxel сказал:

 

In the MiG-29 it is a bit different anyway, because the combined Radar/OLS mode only exists in the ZPS setting. I think the OLS of the MiG-29 is simply to weak for anything else.

 

The Su-27 on the other hand can also use the combined mode in the front hemisphere setting.

 

In the combined mode, if one sensor loses the target, it will be tracked by the other one if possible. Nowhere does it say that the target illumination channel will turn off if the tracking transitions to OLS.

Which documents have you used for this conclusion?

[BlackPixxel]

Might have been wrong about the Radar/OLS interaction mode limited to ZPS in the MiG-29, that is just what a MiG-29 pilot once wrote to me.

 

Both the MiG-29B document and the Su-27SK manual mention the interaction modes of Radar/OLS and how the target lock can transition between both sensor types.

But none of them says what happens in the specific case of R-27R/ER being fired and the OLS becoming the primary sensor.

 

MiG-29B document on page 171 says that the "ФСХ " algorithm sends the  illumination = on  signal from the launch of the missile until the end of illumination command comes from the "РКР" algorithm.

It does however not specify under what condition the end of illumination command will be formed.

 

In the block diagramm on the next page you can see that all kinds of information about the geometry and dynamics between target and fighter are sent to the РКР-algorithm, as well as information about the selected missile. No information about the currently used tracking channel (Radar/OLS) can be seen.

 

The most reasonable thing to me seems to send the end of illumination command when the operation time of the missile ended (60 s).

[FoxAlfa]

35 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

Might have been wrong about the Radar/OLS interaction mode limited to ZPS in the MiG-29, that is just what a MiG-29 pilot once wrote to me.

In a 29 there is a switch that ether combines them or keeps them independent,

so, both behavior that EO steps in and keeps pointing the RLK, if RLK losses track... and the one Кош described are correct... it's just if they are combined or not based on the switch. In Close Combat mode, they are always combined. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by FoxAlfa

[Чарик80]

- Х-65 / Х-65Э - проект КРБД с неядерной БЧ. Вероятно, не реализован, но в 1990-е годы неоднократно показывался на выставках военной техники. Так же как и Х-55СМ ракета оснащена конформными топливными баками. Впервые ракета показана на московском авиасалоне в 1992 г., а в 1903 г. была показана на выставке вооружений в Абу-Даби (ОАЭ).

- Х-65С / Х-65СЭ - проект противокорабельной крылатой ракеты на базе КР Х-65. Вероятно, так же не реализован. Вес 1250 кг  БЧ 410 кг   дальн.500-600 км / 250-280 км скорость 840 км/ч, ну а в игре как обычно-Х65 с дальностью 2500км(от Х55)-вес 1400 как Х55СМ и бч 500кг-от балды.

[Teknetinium]

On 2/15/2021 at 6:11 PM, BlackPixxel said:

 

I am talking about something different.

If the DCS F-15 fires an Aim-7 and the target turns through the notch quick enough, then the radar will keep illuminating the target the whole time. So the missile is guided the whole time, and can hit at any moment.

In the russian aircraft, the lock will instantly transition to OLS as soon as the target enters the notch, and then the missile is no longer guided. In addition to that, the missile will then instantly turn into nearby chaff, even though they are not illuminated. And on top of that, even if there was no chaff and the lock transitions back to radar as soon as the target left the notch, the missile will have done a S-maneuver in the meantime, losing tons of speed.

 

The OLS, that should help the Flanker + R-27 against targets turning through the notch (changing hemisphere) makes it actually much worse in DCS thanks to the 3 reasons mentioned above. The R-27R/ER becomes practially useless in the game unless fired from a distance where the target does not have time to change aspect.

 

Chizh mentioned a while ago that they would change it so that the lock will only transition to OLS if for 4 seconds the target cannot be found again in radar. This would remove the issue in most of the cases, and would be a welcome change.

 

The way it is right now I would rather have no OLS at all, as it is degrading the R-27R/ER PK in multiplayer by alot!

 

Chiz could we get something that help the situation mean while. This is one important feature that actually downgrade us then the opposite.  

[Chizh]

20 часов назад, GGTharos сказал:

 

But this is really not correct for helicopters ... if the rotors are spinning, radars should see them at any altitude. 

 

Do you have confirmation of this fact?

And what if the rotor is composite materials?

[GGTharos]

3 hours ago, Chizh said:

Do you have confirmation of this fact?

And what if the rotor is composite materials?

 

I'll post relevant documents here, I just need a little time to find them again. 

 

Composite materials decrease RCS, but I guess it depend son the composite?   A big contributor to the RCS is also the hub/mast which can easily have a lot of 90 degree angles.

 

The biggest confirmation in times of combat was the F-15E attack on a helicopter, the data for it is reasonably complete for this action:

F-15E was at 5000', Helicopter (they don't specify type) was landed and loading/unloading soldiers 50nm away.   The F-15E picked it up on AA radar from 50nm away.  The radar was left in AA mode and it tracked the helicopter constantly.  The pod was slaved to the radar which allowed them to determine that the heli was landed later.  Because of this they decided to attack with a GBU instead of AIM-9.

 

I will find the account for the above as well.

Edited February 17, 2021 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

Let me know if you are unable to access any of these:

 

This one is for time-based algorithm to detect helicopter blades in low SNR (basically in high noise, long distance) ... applies mostly to AWACS and is a modern thing IMHO (2000's), similar but not the same technique is used for early detection of low RCS things like cruise missiles.

https://www.dst.defence.gov.au/sites/default/files/publications/documents/DST-Group-TR-3481.pdf

 

This discusses a computer model of helicopter RCS, including rotor blades:  https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a545676.pdf

 

Another PDF with similar information:  https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/21/1/271/pdf

 

And another source: https://www.mdpi.com/1424-8220/20/7/2097/htm

 

Doppler Signature Measurements of an Mi-24 Hind-D Helicopter at 92 GHz:  https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA351581.pdf

 

Tiger helicopter effect of rotor configuration on RCS:  https://ojs.unsw.adfa.edu.au/index.php/juer/article/viewFile/469/303

 

 

Combat account from the pilot (I have seen more detailed, but I can only search for so long):  https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0193bennett/

Quote

The image on the pod was good enough to identify the helicopters as probable [Mi-24] “Hinds,” five to ten miles out. Hinds can carry troops and are heavily armed with rockets and machine guns. As soon as the helicopters picked up and started moving, we were getting hits off them on the radar. The radar would stay locked on them when they were on the ground because the moving rotor blades were picked up.

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by GGTharos

[Teknetinium]

Chiz, ED had time to implement lost of lock if rolled below 1500m, why dont ED find time for something that improves the situation for Su-27/33. That Radar turns off and switch to EOS as soon a target is notching making ER-27 Lose track should be possible to fix in order to make it closer to RL.   

 

Chiz, could you give me one example where Su-33 broke its wings? Is it Possible to break Su-33 wing with G limiter on.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Teknetinium