Ракеты в DCS

[Chizh]

13 часов назад, MA_VMF сказал:

для Р-27ЭП, это не проблема

Да, да. Волшебная Р-27П может захватить даже не работающий радар на дальности около 100 км. )

13 часов назад, Кош сказал:

Это уже 20 лет как не новости.

Одно дело детектировать LPI мощным современным комплексом РТР. И совсем другое - древней пассивной ракетой без ЦВМ.

[okopanja]

7 hours ago, TotenDead said:

Носители амраамов хоть раз сбивали этими ракетами хоть что-то в TWS?

Yes, Hwang is credited shooting down Peric/Radosavljevic while using TWS in 1999. He and the wingman fired 4 AIM-120.

We know since Mike Shower criticized junior pilot for heading to a merge in TWS. It worked well, since both Perić and Radosavljević were trying to climb 7000m.

I did not publish this story yet, but you can find in English section of Mig-29 FF module 4 encounters I translated. For this particular flight it will take a longer time, since Peric did provide lots of details.

Shower himself merged twice with 29s on first evening:

1. He fired on Nikolic he AIM-120 and Sparrow at 14nm, followed by 1 more AIM-120 at around 5nm, since first 2 missed

2. He fired on Kulacin another AIM-120, which also missed

He used STT.

Unlike Hwang, Shower faced 2 low flying Mig-29.

Edited January 28 by okopanja

[MA_VMF]

1 час назад, Chizh сказал:

Да, да. Волшебная Р-27П может захватить даже не работающий радар на дальности около 100 км. )

Про не работающий речи не было

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, Sindar said:

Вот даже интересно на что она будет наводиться, когда диаграмма антенны будет ей светить ей нулём между главным и боковым лепестком 

In TWS mode, does the radar emit nothing? Or does it emit on 10 different operating frequencies? Any radiation in the forward hemisphere would be a target for a passive . And a towed jamming transmitter would be a target too. Just like the sun is a target for IR missiles.

This depends, I would expect from such weapon to be able of sort of selectivity. E.g. being able to stick to the specific radar in TWS would be hard requirement for soviet electronics in 80s, unless they relied on western components.

The next candidate would be: any radiation within selected 1GHz band from 8-12GHz on last extrapolated angular position. E.g. you do not care much about the signal as long as it is in the expected volume of space. 

As for jammers we kind of have an air-HARM against jammers: LD-10 will prefer jammer to actual radar in active mode.

 

[Xhonas]

Hello guys, something interesting that i noticed in DCS is the range of the Aim-120, and basically other missiles as well, when you're flying very high, 50 to 60k feet, basically every missile is limited by its battery time instead of aerodynamics. Take these examples below: 

Missile is lanuched at a target 80nm distance

Peak speed is mach 4.22

But impact speed is mach 3.35!! So, it means that the missile is capable of flying way, way further than this.

Edited January 28 by Xhonas

[Xhonas]

At the same time, for a target flying at mach 1 and missile fired at 70nm, impact speed is 3.15

 

Edited January 28 by Xhonas

[Chizh]

21 минуту назад, Xhonas сказал:

Hello guys, something interesting that i noticed in DCS is the range of the Aim-120, and basically other missiles as well, when you're flying very high, 50 to 60k feet, basically every missile is limited by its battery time instead of aerodynamics.

Not quite so. Radar missiles are most often limited by the ability to lock onto a target at the desired point. Then the longer the missile flies, the INS accumulate more errors. At long range, the probability that the target will be in the missile's field of view decreases.

 

[tavarish palkovnik]

From kinematic point of view and mechanical perspective, most of rockets and its trajectories can be, with basic knowledge, quite precisely determined…up to 10km altitude, maximally 15km depending of motor potential. Above this zone, circuses starts and most of linearity that could be used or counted on at lower altitudes, over there stops. Mistakes or better to say miscalculations measured in 15-20% just by overlooking some initially considered as irrelevant details can happen easily.

Depending of nozzle and chamber pressure thrust can be significantly increased, depending of configuration drag coefficients can be significantly increased due to friction, atmosphere conditions if deviates from standard atmosphere, and it does normally, bring changes measured in easily 10-15%. With high altitude and rare atmosphere, angles of attack becoming bigger and bigger, and depending of rocket configuration this last is starting to be the first factor for determining zones.

In these few “launches” of mine, stability was main factor for shortening zones, sometimes significantly and rapidly 

 

[Serafim51]

 

Очень убедительно 

[T4buk]

Hallo @Chizh what do you think about this?

An 1993 article  co-authored by Head of Vympel bureau Sokolovskiy(Соколовский),  Lead Engineer & chief designer Bogatskiy(Богацкий) and  representative from TsAGI(ЦАГИ) Kojinov(Кожинов) . Where among other things, such as optional launch from rail, passive guidance mode,   they state that R-77 lattice fins slight drag increase and heavier weight it still surpasses Aim-120A in range.  And that military experts who conducted state tests concluded that Russian aircraft armed with R-77 would have an advantage over US jets armed with AMRAAM. Given the time period article refers to Aim-120A and by extension to Aim-120B since it had no range advantage over the A variant.

Note: I do not speak or understand Russian!

google translation of the article:

 

yandex translation of the article:

 

[Chizh]

47 минут назад, T4buk сказал:

Hallo @Chizh what do you think about this?

An 1993 article  co-authored by Head of Vympel bureau Sokolovskiy(Соколовский),  Lead Engineer & chief designer Bogatskiy(Богацкий) and  representative from TsAGI(ЦАГИ) Kojinov(Кожинов) . Where among other things, such as optional launch from rail, passive guidance mode,   they state that R-77 lattice fins slight drag increase and heavier weight it still surpasses Aim-120A in range.  And that military experts who conducted state tests concluded that Russian aircraft armed with R-77 would have an advantage over US jets armed with AMRAAM. Given the time period article refers to Aim-120A and by extension to Aim-120B since it had no range advantage over the A variant.

Note: I do not speak or understand Russian!

google translation of the article:

 

yandex translation of the article:

 

This is a typical advertising article from the 90s, where imaginary advantages are pointed out and disadvantages are almost not pointed out. In reality, the RVV-AE loses to AIM-120 in terms of range and computer power (and many tiny things depends on onboard computer).
Do not take these texts at face value. This is just propaganda.

[T4buk]

Quote

1 hour ago, Chizh said:

This is a typical advertising article from the 90s, where imaginary advantages are pointed out and disadvantages are almost not pointed out. In reality, the RVV-AE loses to AIM-120 in terms of range and computer power (and many tiny things depends on onboard computer).
Do not take these texts at face value. This is just propaganda.

 

Thank you Chizh for your response.

Can you show me evidence how the RVV-AE loses to AIM-120?

[Chizh]

8 часов назад, T4buk сказал:

Thank you Chizh for your response.

Can you show me evidence how the RVV-AE loses to AIM-120?

We have a manual for the export MiG-29. The maximum range for the RVV-AE is stated as 50 km. As for R-27R.

 

Спойлер

 

 

 

 

[Blackfyre]

On 1/28/2025 at 8:40 PM, Chizh said:

Not quite so. Radar missiles are most often limited by the ability to lock onto a target at the desired point. Then the longer the missile flies, the INS accumulate more errors. At long range, the probability that the target will be in the missile's field of view decreases.

 

А если ракету сопровождать, то неточность ИНС тоже влияет? В DCS довольно точно можно воспроизвести отсечку в 90 секунд, после которой 120ка не попадает никогда, а вот до - почти всегда. Я довольно много АВАКСов сбил на предельных дальностях, скажем летящий боком с 40 миль E2D или горячий с 60. Если не сопровождать, то действительно скорее всего она не попадет, даже если цель не будет вообще изменять параметры полёта.

Edited February 13 by Blackfyre

[Chizh]

Да, сопровождение цели радаром носителя с выдачей радиокоррекции на ракету, увеличивают точность и уменьшают вероятность незахвата цели.

Но, интеграция в оружие честной INS с выставкой и уводами еще только предстоит.

[T4buk]

Quote

4 hours ago, Chizh said:

We have a manual for the export MiG-29. The maximum range for the RVV-AE is stated as 50 km. As for R-27R.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Chizh for your response.

Hire information about Russian missile provided and written by Dr.Carlo Kopp the Air Power Australia Editor-in-Chief Head of Capability and Strategy Research. so he is definitely not russian propagandist.

and in his information we fund that R-77 which is the Russian version of the RVV-AE had 54 NMI Kinematic rang = about 100 km.

I can give you the Doku in pdf.

for more info. about Dr. Carlo Koop

[Chizh]

1 час назад, T4buk сказал:

Thank you Chizh for your response.

Hire information about Russian missile provided and written by Dr.Carlo Kopp the Air Power Australia Editor-in-Chief Head of Capability and Strategy Research. so he is definitely not russian propagandist.

and in his information we fund that R-77 which is the Russian version of the RVV-AE had 54 NMI Kinematic rang = about 100 km.

I can give you the Doku in pdf.

for more info. about Dr. Carlo Koop

No need. I know Uncle Kopp's web-site well already many years. He is a great fan of collecting unverified data.
But in this case, yes, from the diagram I provided, it is clear that the kinematic range of the RVV-AE can be 100 km when launched at high altitude and high speed. Another question is that the real DLZ is noticeable less.

[MA_VMF]

5 часов назад, Chizh сказал:

We have a manual for the export MiG-29. The maximum range for the RVV-AE is stated as 50 km.

Только ограничена дальность РЛС носителя.А не самой ракетой

[Chizh]

9 минут назад, MA_VMF сказал:

Только ограничена дальность РЛС носителя.А не самой ракетой

Не совсем. На этом же носителе дальность Р-27ЭР больше.

[tavarish palkovnik]

What these border lines should present ?

 

 

 

 

[MA_VMF]

1 час назад, Chizh сказал:

Не совсем. На этом же носителе дальность Р-27ЭР больше.

Ну это странно, но у ЭР дальность 130км макс, а у РВВ-АЕ 80, причем это ограниченно батарейкой

Edited February 13 by MA_VMF

[T4buk]

Quote

1 hour ago, MA_VMF said:

Только ограничена дальность РЛС носителя.А не самой ракетой

 

Exactly. 

I think this why Ethiopian Su-27s had won vs Eritrean MiG-29s in 90s war.

[MicroShket]

1 минуту назад, MA_VMF сказал:

Ну так у ЭР 130км против 80

Так ограничение по РЛС привело бы к одинаково малой дальности. Разве нет? 

[MA_VMF]

Только что, MicroShket сказал:

Так ограничение по РЛС привело бы к одинаково малой дальности. Разве нет? 

Я не так написал, возможно условия пуска были разные

[Chizh]

11 минут назад, tavarish palkovnik сказал:

What these border lines should present ?

I assume that this is a range limitation for a desired probability of target lock. That is, beyond this range, the probability of target acquisition falls unacceptably.

 

 

5 минут назад, MA_VMF сказал:

Ну это странно,

Ну что есть.

5 минут назад, MA_VMF сказал:

РВВ-АЕ 80, причем это ограниченно батарейкой

Мы этого не знаем.