Arma 3 developers arrested in Greece

[Pyroflash]

I hope so, this has gotten completely out of hand if the above statements are true. Though one good thing I suppose, is that it will turn out to be a good bar story for those two guys provided nothing bad happens to them :D.

[sungsam]

I hope so, this has gotten completely out of hand if the above statements are true. Though one good thing I suppose, is that it will turn out to be a good bar story for those two guys provided nothing bad happens to them :D.

 

Yeah !! they admit that they are treated the right way.

 

They are lucky, Finally none is gonna drink their blood. It not the blood type they prefeir at Lemnos. :D

[EtherealN]

What really impress me is the complete unawareness of BI staff for local Laws since you need special allowance for this kind of work.

 

What kind of "work"?

 

Check out Limnos; the hangars etcetera are right next to the main road, on the same airport they (and other tourists) would arrive at. Any kind of photography in this situation is going to strike a military installation, and as we all know - taking photos is something tourists have a habit of doing. ;)

 

 

See the bunkers and stuff on the left? Right next to the main road.

[sungsam]

Hi EtherealN :)

 

Kind of work = Arma 3 mapping work that requires intensive photographing not occasional tourist shots of bankers near roads or airfields that serve in mix (common situation in Greece due to small islands) .

 

They raised suspicions couse they also photographing remote areas with military installations nearby, inside island that tourists had no reason to even be there.

 

Plus it seems that never informed autorities or comply to laws as they had to.

 

Look people what i'm saying is simple. Arma 3 mapping requires that kind of methodic and time consuming photyography activity that clearly raises suspicions on any uninformed authority. Why is it difficult to be understandable ?

 

Limnos is not any common area, been located in frontiers of europe, has same security restrections raised. The game is simple to every place on planet. You fail to comply with local Laws, you finally arrested.

Edited September 17, 2012 by sungsam

[EtherealN]

Did you read post 74 above?

 

There appears to be some dispute about what they actually did.

[sungsam]

Did you read post 74 above?

 

There appears to be some dispute about what they actually did.

 

I read it. This is BI point of view. Ther is also Authorities point of view. Since events are still ongoing, it is safe to not harry in conclusions of outcome.

Edited September 18, 2012 by sungsam

[G00dnight]

what they did or didn't do is a matter for the greek authorities to investigate, IMO they may have been a bit naive in taking a holiday on the island where there is a dispute between the greeks and BI, maybe they were watched a lot closer than normal.

But I think what they did was like me walking into a bar in londonderry taking some photos and saying its alright I work for the british army, I don't think the outcome would be very good.

[Napa]

what they did or didn't do is a matter for the greek authorities to investigate, IMO they may have been a bit naive in taking a holiday on the island where there is a dispute between the greeks and BI, maybe they were watched a lot closer than normal.

But I think what they did was like me walking into a bar in londonderry taking some photos and saying its alright I work for the british army, I don't think the outcome would be very good.

 

When a police vehicle patrolling the perimeter of the airbase sees two guys taking photos one time, they'll go there, give them a warning and then everybody is back to their business.

 

Its just the two devs business is to keep taking photos. The police sees them again, the same two persons, in different area, now more suspicious than before... what did they think was gonna happen?

[Pyroflash]

When a police vehicle patrolling the perimeter of the airbase sees two guys taking photos one time, they'll go there, give them a warning and then everybody is back to their business.

 

Its just the two devs business is to keep taking photos. The police sees them again, the same two persons, in different area, now more suspicious than before... what did they think was gonna happen?

 

Yeah, but they weren't right outside the base, they took photos that happened to have military installations in them. Not only that, but it wasn't like the cameras were full of them either. Only a few photos were found containing actual military buildings.

[sungsam]

Yeah, but they had to inform authorities ! AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

BOOOOOOMMM !!!!

 

:chair::D

[Pyroflash]

Why, if I wanted to take a picture of a tree that has a military base in the background, I need to inform the police? That is absurd. If I was inside of the base, or hanging around on the fence, of course that would be a completely different story.

[sungsam]

Couse you will probably do it randomly and occasionally. The differnce is that they have been repeatetly spotted to do it in methodical way. That is enought for every authority to suspect you. Especially if they dont know who you are and what are you doing, or no permissions granted.

 

Take your photo machine, go to area 51 nevada and keep shoot the mountains behind base. Then claim that you only shooting the mountains because of your geological interests and not the base. Do you think that this will solve any misunderstanding ? :)

 

note: your track clip can be easily fixed if we talk about plastic frame!

Edited September 18, 2012 by sungsam

[Pyroflash]

Couse you will probably do it randomly and occasionally. The differnce is that they have been repeatetly spotted to do it in methodical way. That is enought for every authority to suspect you. Especially if they dont know who you are and what are you doing, or no permissions granted.

 

Take your photo machine, go to area 51 nevada and keep shoot the mountains behind base. Then claim that you only shooting the mountains because of your geological interests and not the base. Do you think that this will solve any misunderstanding ? :)

 

"They took photographs and videos in public areas, as countless tourists arriving to enjoy the beauty and hospitality of Greece may well do. These included a short video as they drove through the main road passing around the international airport, where in one short part of the video off in the distance some hangars and other buildings of the complex can be seen."

 

Hardly methodical, and yes, if I went to Edwards AFB to take photos of the closest mountain, I'm pretty sure I could get away with it provided I wasn't sitting there with a high powered lens. I mean, people live up there. There are multiple state parks up there.

 

Anyways, back to BIS. Since their research was done many years ago on Lemnos, I doubt that they went there to spy for Bohemia. More likely the Authorities knew that the two devs were coming, and as a result of past disagreements (Greece is heavily against BIS' purely fictional portrayal of their island), were looking for any excuse to detain them. Even if that isn't the case (which I don't think it is anyways), they weren't anywhere sensitive, and weren't doing anything over what thousands of tourists do every year.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Pyroflash

[sungsam]

I see, well have in mind that Greece frontiers are special frontiers, Limnos lacated there and just a couple of minutes before ,I read that Hellenic Army alone with FRONDEX rises security restrictions on southern East side of frontiers with reinforcments. It is estimated that 100.000 people from area of Lybia, Syria, etc are trying to brake in Greece to escape to European grounds according to the later uprising in area, and withthem any kind of criminal characters.

 

Also I read that Islam extremists are vandalising Ancien Greek Sites in Syria.

Edited September 18, 2012 by sungsam

[Eight Ball]

Now they have more material for missions :devil_2:

 

Well...

Coop Mission - Espionage !

[manfrez01]

^^:D:megalol:

[Eight Ball]

Dean Hall, AKA Rocket, creator of the DayZ mod has posted this on his tumblr

 

How you can help them

You have the power to help me free my friends. I need you to do four things, and if enough people get behind this. The world has their eye on Greece because of their economic troubles, let them know the world has two of their friends held hostage. These things are very important. Petitions and such are great but not as powerful as personal contact, these steps will get my friends freed:

1. Send a twitter message to the Prime Minister of Greece (@primeministergr) letting him know we want Ivan and Maxel returned to their families immediately. This is probably one of the most public and obvious things you can do to help. Social Media works.

2. Call, write, or visit your nearest Greek Embassy (click the link for a list). Let them know what they have done is wrong, and that you want them released. Be civil, but be honest. We don’t stand for this in the part of the world I come from.

3. Spread the word, let everyone know. Please forward my post on, and these links, to anyone who might be able to help. For more information you can visit my friends website at http://www.helpivanmartin.org/

4. Let the local press on the island know what you think on their facebook page, and their twitter @LesvosNet. Read some of the comments on this article for an idea of what is going on. Let’s end it exactly where it all started in the first place!

 

http://rocketkiwi.tumblr.com/post/31744919816/my-friends-are-in-prison

[sungsam]

Macadam Cow and Dean Hall, you are technically trying to tranform the incident to a political problem !

 

This is NOT going to Help your friends. Do you think that we don't care about your friends here in Greece ?

 

You are motivating people to belive that autorities have done something wrong, while authorities clearly followed the laws that your friend failed to or completely ignored to follow in Greece.

 

You fail to understand or accept the Laws of other countries or even the special reasons for that laws existance.

 

Feel confident that your friends will probably set free if thinks are just as they say. investigation takes time and it is obvious that patient is not your virtue.

 

Your friends admited that they are treated with the best possible way.

 

Now if you keep propagating on the matter, you 'll make people belive including me that your motives are defered than just saving your friends.

 

Your friends don't need to be saved. They are already safe in hands of Greek justice if they are innocent.

Edited September 18, 2012 by sungsam

[Eight Ball]

Just to be clear : I don't know personaly neitheir Ivan Buchta nor Martin Pezlar.

They aren't my friends.

 

I'm not taking part in any debate, neither here nor anywhere else.

The only personnal comment I've made about all this is this one (on armaholic) :

Lets not let this event tears apart the [ArmA] community.

Our goal is to set those guys free so lets focus on that and not waste energy debating about laws and whatnot.

I am comletely against any iniative like this one which, IMO, are only putting oil on fire and dividing the arma community, no matter what its creator can say.

Yes, I believe they're innocent and this is a big misunderstanding but I wouldn't bet one of my balls on this, just like I said I don't know them.

 

In this particular case, with the very few info we have, I have more trust in BIS than in the Greek officials.

I would feel the same if it had happened in France or in Poland but even more with Greece since it has a track record with this kind of "misunderstanding".

 

No one talked about saving them but helping them

 

I don't have any hidden agenda, I just post useful info for those who would like to do a little more. Stop with the paranoia ffs

Edited September 18, 2012 by Eight Ball

[sungsam]

In this particular case, with the very few info we have, I have more trust in BIS than in the Greek officials.

I would feel the same if it had happened in France or in Poland but even more with Greece since it has a track record with this kind of "misunderstanding".

 

Sorry to hear that. This is completely unfair for all these countries that have history against Humman rights violation. It is better to belive countries than companies that care only for profit.

[EtherealN]

Take your photo machine, go to area 51 nevada and keep shoot the mountains behind base. Then claim that you only shooting the mountains because of your geological interests and not the base. Do you think that this will solve any misunderstanding ? :)

 

Pre 9/11 (after which the restriction area was widened) it was 100% possible to photograph Groom Lake to your hearts content. One pilot discussing it mentioned that he would fly his Cessna between two towns but take a "detour" skirting the edge of the restriction zone, offering perfect view.

 

The only thing that would come out of this would be the Groom Lake tower suggesting a more direct bearing to the destination of their flight plan. That was it. :)

 

On the ground, you'll be stopped before it's even possible to photograph the base, with clear markings well before that. This is quite different to having something right next to the main road in a tourist destination... :P

 

But anyhow:

 

Pretty innit? :D

 

EDIT:

Also, another clip relevant to the question of photographing Groom Lake:

 

 

A fine and a couple days community service; but not for the crime of photography, just for the crime of obstructing the search.

 

Now, the thing with citing laws and stuff in Greece about Lemnos is fine and good, but for the sake of sanity (and this thread's capability of remaining open) keep things to known facts. And it is NOT a known fact that they were caught repeatedly with taking up-close pictures. This fact is disputed, and originates from media reports; not from the actual investigation. We know the accusation, but not whether it's actually valid.

Edited September 18, 2012 by EtherealN

[Eight Ball]

It is better to belive countries than companies that care only for profit.

 

As I said : In this partictular case.

 

Bohemia Interactive isn't Electronic Arts or Codemaster.

It's a small indie studio who really stands apart. You can ask to anyone who knows ArmA and BIS, they'll tell you how close the devs are with the community, participating in the forums, releasing "light" version of their DLCs to avoid splitting the online gaming, etc

BI really isn't like any other studio.

 

And that's probably why this event is triggering such strong feelings and emotions.

[EtherealN]

Thread cleaned. I want everyone to re-read the forum rules before posting anything further.

[sungsam]

As I said : In this partictular case.

 

Bohemia Interactive isn't Electronic Arts or Codemaster.

It's a small indie studio who really stands apart. You can ask to anyone who knows ArmA and BIS, they'll tell you how close the devs are with the community, participating in the forums, releasing "light" version of their DLCs to avoid splitting the online gaming, etc

BI really isn't like any other studio.

 

And that's probably why this event is triggering such strong feelings and emotions.

 

I am also a fun and customer of BI. It's the nature of game that triggers such feelings in my opinion. It is defently risky for them when they try to reach such a realism level. I belive they should have been more proactively carefull on their activities in Lemnos. Thats all.

[Eight Ball]

sungsam, I not here to talk about what happened since actually no one agrees on what happened.

I can't say they should have been more carefull since according to them they didn't took any pictures of any sensitive material or place.

 

As I said earlier, I give the 2 devs the benefits of the doubt, innocent until proven guilty.

I consider I know too little to talk about it. I'm just a messenger.

 

This was post on armaholic, it's the translation of an interview with the devs lawyer. As soon as I get the source I'll add it.

 

Are your clients tourists or was their visint on the island purely work related? According to the media, they told the investigators that they were collecting material for ArmA 3 computer game on Lemnos. Then their employer Bohemia Interactive posted a press release that the two men weren't send there on business.

I have the file in front of me and believe me, both arrested testified from the beginning that they are in Greece on vacation. They stated, that they knew Lemnos due to their work, and because of that they chose it as their holyday destination. They never said to the investigators that they are there on business. Everybody tries to connect their visit on the island with the ArmA game. That however isn't true. They didn't come there to take photos of the environment for the game. They use modern technology for that, which has better quality. For the game were used snapshots from Google Earth, satelites and other publicly accessible resources.

So why did they take photos of the objects that are prohibited to be shot?

My clients were just viewing the island, on their camera there is approximately 150 common tourist photos. Than there is one video, from which the investigators took 14 snapshots. There can be seen military air field. But that video was shot from the car while driving.

Did they know they are shooting restricted object?

There can be seen one sign on the video, informing that this object can't be photographed. The thing is, that as they were driving, they didn't notice the first sign. At the moment they saw the second sign, they stopped filming.

Despite of this they were charged of espionage?

Yes, according to the investigators, they were in possession of the material, that can endanger the national security of Greece. As I already said, the material in question is only that one short video. Also they filmed object, that is very easily visible and accessible to the public. Air field and the military buildings are near to the public communications. Anybody passing by can see what's going on inside the base. Charge of espionage means, that someone has to try to collect and get away secret information out of the country. My clients weren't hiding anywhere, nor they tried to infiltrate restricted areas. Their photos also doesn't contain any secret information. It is clear, that their intention wasn't spying, it was just a mistake. So they shouldn't be charged of espionage, but only of taking photos of military objects without permision, which is much less serious charge.

Does the Greek prosecution have enough evidence to bring the arrested to the trial?

By the Greek law, it is not neccessary to collect evidence during the investigation, for the prosecution only hint of a crime that the subject might commit is enough. Only at the trial there has to be evidence presented. For the court could be interesting only that 14 shots captured from the video.

Why is the case being judged so seriously? Are the Greeks so sensitive about their military objects?

Lemnos is a strategic island, Turkey is close from there, so there are a lot of soldiers guarding the objects. Another thing is that there was already a dispute about the ArmA game last year, which raised many critic reactions. Politicians from Lesbos interpelled in the parlament on this topic. Minister of the defence at the moment claimed, that they had surveyed the whole ArmA 3 project and hadn't found anything, that would harm the interests of Greece. He also added, that with the current technology, it is impossible to stop images of the Greek territory being captured. Nevertheless the affair caused that the security service is even more touchy.

Are you in contact with the both arrested? How are they psychologically feeling?

They are in prison, nobody would feel good in their situation, but they try to be strong and have faith in the justice, they belive, that Greece is a lawful state.

What are your next steps as their attorney?

We want to appeal for their release, so they can be investigated while keep their freedom. It may take several days before it is determined. It can go both way. Either prosecutor will say they will stay in prison till the court takes place, or he may set a bail.

How long can it take to close the case?

It can take one week or one year. By Greek law, the trial has to be set at the latest in 18 months, until then they might stay in prison.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Eight Ball