Filling Bags from the tanker

[104th_Maverick]

Can refueling fast jets pump fuel into the external fuel tanks during AAR?

 

I have asked this question to a few people and can't seem to get a consistent answer.

 

My 'assumption' is that yes they can do this, to me it just doesn't make sense to be flying around with two (or three) Drag Magnets that are empty with no way to fill them back up after you have used the fuel inside them.

But I can appreciate that it may not be as simple as...because the fuel comes out you can put it back in sort of deal.

 

BEFORE YOU REPLY TO THIS POST

 

Please do NOT simply just guess and type an answer.. I can do that on my own.

 

If you do not know the answer then please do not reply.

 

If you DO know the answer and it is 'no they cannot'... can you please explain why this is?

 

Ideally I am hoping some RW flight or ground crew can answer this... Cali???

 

Thanks in advance!

[aaron886]

Yes. Awful long post for a simple question, wasn't it? ;)

[Eddie]

Yeah, a VERY long winded and somewhat perplexing way to ask a very simple question.

[marcos]

This article has reference to it being done:

 

http://airrefuelingarchive.wordpress.com/2009/05/page/2/

 

he OV-1B Mohawk used, s/n 62-5868, had the Side Looking Airborne Radar antenna and internal sensor equipment removed and two 300 gallon drop tanks installed instead of the normal 150 gallon tanks. The refueling probe was “borrowed” from a Navy A-4 and plumbed directly into the main fuselage tank. Fuel could then be transferred to each drop tank upon replenishing and back to the main tank later as needed. Bob doesn’t remember of any other probe kits installed on other OV-1′s.

 

 

 

I'm going to guess that it can be done.

[Eddie]

I'm going to guess that it can be done.

 

What gave you the clues? Was it the fact that aaron886 correctly answered that yes they can be in the very first reply?

[104th_Maverick]

Yeah, a VERY long winded and somewhat perplexing way to ask a very simple question.

 

Yeah it was to try and save me the hassle of dealing with people like you, I obviously failed terribly. I naively thought if I explained why I was asking I wouldn't have to sift through all the crap that gets posted on these forums by the self appointed fun police and Wikipedia arm chair experts.

 

You can't say anything on ED forums without someone like you jumping down your throat regarding the content and context of a post. This place is full of smart arse comments from people who spend far to much time on here trying to correct other people or ridicule them... your a fantastic example of this, you gave nothing to this post, no input NOTHING of value... All you did was express your irrelevant opinion on the way I posted a question... as if what you think matters to anyone.

 

Some of you guys need to get out more rather than pressing 'Reply'

 

Thanks to Marco for some good input and not a simple 'yes' with no explanation

Edited September 18, 2012 by [Maverick]

[EtherealN]

;1553715']I naively thought if I explained why I was asking I wouldn't have to sift through all the crap that gets posted on these forums by the self appointed fun police and wikipeidia arm chair experts.

 

One of these days you really should take a moment to figure out the qualifications of the people you are communicating with. ;)

 

Eddie does not need wikipedia to find an answer, nor is he an "arm chair" expert.

 

Anyway, from Hornet NATOPS manual, section 2.2 'Fuel System'

"All tanks, internal and external, may be refueled on the ground through a single-point refueling receptacle or inflight through the inflight refueling probe."

Edited September 18, 2012 by EtherealN

[104th_Maverick]

Good for Eddie...

 

No disrespect to you sir but I really couldn't give a flying ... well you know ...about what Eddie's qualifications are or what he knows. And if you re-read my post I never said he was the arm chair expert.

 

Rather than constructively answer my question he choose to ridicule the way that I asked it.... this is my problem. There are too many people like that on here, you can't say anything without someone with an average of more than 2 posts a day trying to ridicule you or letting you know their 'opinion' on either what you said or the way you said it.

 

Again naively as it turns out I had hoped that it was obvious I was looking for more than a 'yes or no' answer like I got from Aaron. I posted the question because I had conflicting yes and no answers in the past.

Thanks to you for posting the link on the Hornet manual... perhaps your not all self appointed fun police after all ;)

Edited September 18, 2012 by [Maverick]

[EtherealN]

On similar note:

 

 

As you can see, the same applies to F-16. There is no difference really in refuelling ground or air - just different recepticles feeding the same system and procedures. F-16C/D manual states (1-77 and 1-78), regarding aerial refueling:

 

"When the AIR REFUEL switch is placed to OPEN, the external tanks are depressurized, external fuel does not transfer,"

(This means that the bleed air pressure that normally causes fuel to flow from the external is no longer present, allowing fuel to enter the tank.)

 

further:

"When CFT's are present, the option to fill or prevent filling of the CFT's is available. [...] FILL, the CFT's will not fill. If the EXT FUEL TRANS switch is in NORM or WING FIRST, the CFT's will fill."

 

So CFT's can also be refilled in the air.

 

EDIT: The same applies for F-15's, btw. I don't know what the situation is with russian jets however, my russian is still not good enough to read the manuals. :P

Edited September 18, 2012 by EtherealN

[104th_Maverick]

Awesome! Thanks for your time sir... faith in strangers... restored!

[EtherealN]

;1553723']Thanks for your time sir...

 

Meh, takes 2 minutes to find the manuals on google if you want them. ;)

[Cali]

Guess I was a few minutes late to the party. Since I worked on F-16's and A-10 fuel systems. I can tell you that it takes about 1 minute to fill each external tank on a F-16. It's automatic in fighters and normally the externals feed first until the Weight On Wheels (WOW) switch activated (wheels up). But F-15's are different, they don't start feeding from the externals until the WOW is activated. Another thing is they normally feed out from externals, wings then the body, reason why is more agility. Don't want to go into a fight with your wings full, having that weight out there.

 

That's a good pic that Ethereal found. Another thing is the 16 was designed to not have boost pumps in it at all, it was suppose to be all suction and the wings were suppose to be about 20-30sf bigger.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Cali

[aaron886]

;1553723']Awesome! Thanks for your time sir... faith in strangers... restored!

 

Only once you get what you want? Come on, man, seriously. :mad:

[mvsgas]

Guess I was a few minutes late to the party. Since I worked on F-16's and A-10 fuel systems. I can tell you that it takes about 1 minute to fill each external tank on a F-16....

 

:smartass:

It only takes you one minute because you just tell the crew chief to refuel and call you If we find any problems :D

 

For the OP

http://www.f-15e.info/joomla/en/technology/fuel-system/94-air-refueling-system

 

and page 1-33 to 1-46

http://www.scribd.com/doc/26400980/F-16C-D-Flight-Manual

 

More online, Google is your friend

for example, not directly related but Air refueling info

http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/?rdoFormPub=rdoPub&txtSearchWord=refueling&btnG.x=0&btnG.y=0&client=AFPW_EPubs&proxystylesheet=AFPW_EPubs&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&output=xml_no_dtd&site=AFPW_EPubs

 

Every aircraft will have it's own variations. Some may copy other, etc.

 

PS

Whom ever told you external tanks can't be fill, I would love to know what aircraft or any info.

Edited September 18, 2012 by mvsgas

[mvsgas]

Page 1-13 to 1-20

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34087548/To-1A-10A1-A-10A-Flight-Manual

[mvsgas]

Here are some PDF files with general info on IFR

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=In+flight+refueling.pdf+site:.mil&oq=In+flight+refueling.pdf+site:.mil&gs_l=hp.3...6055.8295.1.8671.4.4.0.0.0.0.131.487.0j4.4.0.les%3Bcesh..0.0...1.1.j8JXaQZBIDY&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=fcff299af63d19f1&biw=1600&bih=1087

[mvsgas]

Power Points

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=In+flight+refueling.ppt+site:.mil&oq=In+flight+refueling.ppt+site:.mil&gs_l=serp.3...8115.10578.0.10897.4.4.0.0.0.0.128.470.0j4.4.0.les%3Bcesh..0.0...1.1.lKHetRxQbC0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=fcff299af63d19f1&biw=1600&bih=1087

[Cali]

Lol @ Mvsgas, I got that straight out of the TO. However, your way works best and is faster. Normally we only helped when TDY cause the crew chiefs were sooooo busy.

 

Did you know a Capt Sligile in the 63rd back in 2007-08.....I spelled his name wrong. He was prior enlisted.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Cali

[104th_Maverick]

Mvsgas and Cali THANKS guys... these were the types of answers I was after... informed and backed up by a few facts and figures.... I was not looking for a simple yes or no... or for my questions length to be analyzed by a few bored members.

 

Oh and on the Google front... I'm currently in China at the moment so my research on the topic hit a few walls (literally) while trying to access some sites... which is why I posted here.

 

Thanks again lads

[G00dnight]

In china ? work or play. sounds interesting..

it does take a little longer than a min even at 50 psi, the max we were allowed to pump at in the raf.

[104th_Maverick]

In china ? work or play. sounds interesting.

 

 

Bit of both sir... just back from a riot outside the Japanese embassy so that counts as work and play where I grew up ;)

Edited September 18, 2012 by [Maverick]

[marcos]

What gave you the clues? Was it the fact that aaron886 correctly answered that yes they can be in the very first reply?

I was mid-post doing research when he posted. And whilst you have a lot of experience, if you weren't so cocky with every post, you wouldn't get on people's tits as much.

Edited September 18, 2012 by marcos

[Cali]

In china ? work or play. sounds interesting..

it does take a little longer than a min even at 50 psi, the max we were allowed to pump at in the raf.

 

I was talking about the F-16 and it takes a minute per external tank to get refueled at 60psi. The boom/F-16 should disconnect above 65psi + or - 5psi or was it 70psi + or - 5

Edited September 18, 2012 by Cali

[104th_Maverick]

Cali.. do you know if its the same PSI for the heavies?

 

Just curious

[Cali]

;1553968']Cali.. do you know if its the same PSI for the heavies?

 

Just curious

 

Not sure, I'll get a hold of some of my buddies that work on them and ask. We don't work on the AR system on the B-52, which is a little weird for me but that's fine with me. Another thing is the pilot can disconnect from the tanker at any time he wants...by pressing the NWS_A/R_DISC_MSL_STEP button

 

EDIT: Quote from friend 1

Yeah they have the same setup just diff press since they are feeding a 4 inch manifold instead of 2.5 like the 16

He said the pressure is different but he doesn't remember cause he stopped working heavies about 4-5 years ago, he works 16's at Luke. I have a few other friends that I ask and I'm waiting on word from them.

 

 

EDIT 2: Quote from friend 2

Yes most heavies have a pressure disconnect switch that is calibrated to 70 plus or minus 5psi

Edited September 18, 2012 by Cali