TWS for MiG29s

[104th_Cobra]

This might help, FC3 manual.

 

Auto lock on target in TWS:

 

TWS mode provides automatic target lock on (transition to STT). This is enabled by moving the radar cursor over a target. The cursor will "snap" to the target and follow it thereafter. Automatic lock on occurs at a range equal to 85% of the calculated maximum weapon launch range. The pilot can force an earlier lock on by pressing the [Enter] key.

 

This should be true for the N019 radar, going from TWS to STT with autolock, iluminating the target for the SARH missile. In the N019M, does the two targets, on TWS(2), get warning of ARH missile guiding? I'm supposing it will not be used STT mode...

 

http://toad-design.com/migalley/index.php/jet-aircraft/mig29/mig29-n019-radar/

Edited January 7, 2013 by Xpto

[GGTharos]

PESA and AESA radars use SWT mode instead (Scan while Track).

 

TWS doesn't necessarily need to give you the impression that it updates every few seconds - typically a track will be displayed as moving along the last known vector until it is scanned again, and if it is in its predicted position it has no reason to 'warp' from spot to spot.

 

Some radars employ track prioritization while scanning as well, so updates in some cases may come faster than the full scan of the airspace.

 

As for FC, it's modeled as an STT lock in terms of accuracy and that won't be changing probably. That offsets the lack of TWS modes for those aircraft that have high-data-rate TWS, I suppose. Think of this as a feature for DCS aircraft instead.

 

Sure, but real tracking while scan can be only carried out by AESA radars... Mechanical doppler radars do the trick recording previous tracking info, and updating the track's history when new fresh data is available.

 

That's why I think that, against maneuvering targets, some sort of jigging in the HUD's target boxes should be expected.

 

Regards!

[Sov13t]

Alright, I will try to shed some light on this whole TTI issue and the misconceptions that exist in the community about it.

 

The documentation is vague, and can easily be misinterpreted for what it really is. The R-27 family of missiles has a 60 second time of controlled flight - how much juice it has on board to maintain operation of all the hamsters inside. Surprise! This same 60 second interval is used by the SU-27's radar to paint the target in STT upon launch to provide the missile with guidance.

 

So, the TTI is really a Time Till Write-off for the missile as a whole.

 

A 4cm line indicates a 60 second interval for "time for intercept" of the launched missile on the HUD.

 

Number 28 and number 13 respectively:

 

 

Hope it helps.

[GGTharos]

Every time you create a track, the track is a file. You don't see this in DCS, but basically a track is a memory file containing target attributes like position, known vector, closure and other fun things, and a time-out counter. The time-out can be as long as half a minute, depending on which radar set you are using (but it could be longer...it's just software).

 

In other words, think about it this way ... you're using SNP mode in your Su-27 or MiG-29, you track a couple of targets and you turn away (they fall out of your scan zone). If you turn back before time-out, they should still be displayed there.

 

For western fighters, you can also designate and attack those tracks - which also means that your radar can attempt to automatically acquire a target outside of its gimbal limit when you turn to put it inside the gimbals, if that track was already designated and has not timed out.

 

Well, if there is "real" tracking, i wonder how does "unreal" tracking works?

[GGTharos]

I think he may be asking for known flight time, which is available for the R-27 missile. Ie. if you launch the missile against a non-maneuvering target, how long until it reaches range x?

 

This is not available for all missiles. For some, it is not needed, for others, you have no choice but to best-guess. This timing can tell you what speed the missile travels at, if it is lofting, etc (assuming you have some other information to help you decide as well).

 

As far as DLZ computations go, any modern fire control set should be computing time-to-go and the missile may be aware of this also. This, as you see from Sov13t's post, does not appear to be true for the Su-27 as modeled in FC.

 

I don't fly F-15, thus I don't know details. However, the method of calculating Time to Impact has to include the movement of the target. Thus, radar must be painting the target all the time and the weapons computer needs to know location and speed of both, missile and target? Right?

[Vault]

As for FC, it's modeled as an STT lock in terms of accuracy and that won't be changing probably.

 

Will the Eagles RWR give a launch warning when a missile is fired in TWS mode on the Fulcrum?

[Sov13t]

If you turn back before time-out, they should still be displayed there.

 

Assuming the same time-out is used for STT/MEM mode (which I guess makes sense?) for SU-27 it is 15 seconds.

[GGTharos]

No, it will funtion like the F-15's TWS. You will see the MiG-29 radar in scan mode, you'll know there's a missile when you get the <M>.

 

Will the Eagles RWR give a launch warning when a missile is fired in TWS mode on the Fulcrum?

Edited January 7, 2013 by GGTharos

[GGTharos]

It may make sense for some radar sets ... I know there are diffent STT/MEM time-out values for the F-15 based on distances (at shorter ranges, you time-out faster since the target will exist a reasonable mini-raster volume quickly).

The time-out for a TWS trackfile is different, since it is a different radar mode.

 

I wonder if they also use range to control the MEM mode for Su-27, but I never saw anything specific regarding this ... where did you find this info? :)

 

Assuming the same time-out is used for STT/MEM mode (which I guess makes sense?) for SU-27 it is 15 seconds.

[Sov13t]

I wonder if they also use range to control the MEM mode for Su-27, but I never saw anything specific regarding this ... where did you find this info? :)

 

Documentation for СУО (WCS) С-27 "Ш-101".

 

No range parameters are mentioned. The afterburner command is issued to the pilot and if tracking is not restored within the 15 second interval lock is dropped.

[Dudikoff]

Number 28 and number 13 respectively: <cut> Hope it helps.

 

Where is the image from? Do you have the notes describing what each number represents? I notice some other HUD features which are not represented currently in FC3 so it would be nice to know what extra information does the Su-27 FCS provide.

[GGTharos]

NIce to know, thanks! Do you know what the purpose of issuing the AB command is?

 

Documentation for СУО (WCS) С-27 "Ш-101".

 

No range parameters are mentioned. The afterburner command is issued to the pilot and if tracking is not restored within the 15 second interval lock is dropped.

[GGTharos]

It's from the flanker manual - I have that one too, but I probably either forgot a lot of it or didn't read it in all its details. You can find it floating around on the net, though it might not be easy. There should be a translated version.

 

One of the biggest differences, IMHO, is probably that the circles guide you to release parameters instead of showing you where the target is, IIRC.

 

Where is the image from? Do you have the notes describing what each number represents? I notice some other HUD features which are not represented currently in FC3 so it would be nice to know what extra information does the Su-27 FCS provide.

[danilop]

Here you go ;) - SU-27SK manual in Russian and (bad) English translation - it's readable though

SU-27 manual.rar

Edited January 8, 2013 by danilop

[Sov13t]

Where is the image from? Do you have the notes describing what each number represents? I notice some other HUD features which are not represented currently in FC3 so it would be nice to know what extra information does the Su-27 FCS provide.

 

The images are from two different versions of the SU-27 flight manual (СУ-27П and СУ-27СК). I believe there are english versions out there somewhere.

 

Yes, there are a lot of indicators/features missing from the in game HUD, those depicted are only examples of post launch indicators. Big chunk of it are things like coexistence of OLS and Radar as well as guidance for optimal launch parameters.

 

One thing to remember though, is that a lot of it can be disabled/configured by the pilot and given FC3's level of detail I think it is appropriate not to have these featured. What we have in FC3 is most likely closest to a fully manual navigation/configuration.

 

Do you know what the purpose of issuing the AB command is?

 

To increase closure rate. The computer displays optimal flight path and parameters to the pilot at all times. Commands like Climb, Descend, Turn away, Afterburn are issued, as well as a flight director circle.

 

EDIT: You guys already discussed some of this in the previous replies while I was still drafting this one... oh well.

[Dudikoff]

There you go ;) - SU-27SK manual in Russian and (bad) English translation - it's readable though

 

Thanks. Though, now I remember I've downloaded this on some other computer a long time ago (thus why I forgot about it, probably :) ).

 

Wait, this is not the correct manual! There are no R-77s there ;)

Edited January 7, 2013 by Dudikoff

[gunterlund21]

There you go ;) - SU-27SK manual in Russian and (bad) English translation - it's readable though

 

Wow the whole start up sequence for the SU27. Now where is my fully functional cockpit. Cant wait to give it a try :thumbup:

[Pilotasso]

Just watched the video, correct me if Im wrong (And I know this is WIP), but shouldnt there be a delay between missile launches? Both missiles came as off the rack as fast as it is possible to press the button.

 

AIM-120A (because R-77 was from the same time period) had a fire delay of about 2s due to off loading targetting data to the missiles slow (but reliable) EEPROM. I guess the adder should have a similar delay. No?

[ФрогФут]

Both missiles came as off the rack as fast as it is possible to press the button.

In fact, you have to press and hold the button once.

[GGTharos]

Actually in RL you can salvo-fire missiles from the F-15 by tapping the pickle and then pressing it down right away and holding it. It will launch two missiles (maybe more, but that I don't know :) ) with minimal delay between then.

 

Just watched the video, correct me if Im wrong (And I know this is WIP), but shouldnt there be a delay between missile launches? Both missiles came as off the rack as fast as it is possible to press the button.

 

AIM-120A (because R-77 was from the same time period) had a fire delay of about 2s due to off loading targetting data to the missiles slow (but reliable) EEPROM. I guess the adder should have a similar delay. No?

[Pilotasso]

Assuming the data starts loading for all missiles at the same time? this makes sense.

[Esac_mirmidon]

Strange that the TTI symbol on the HUD is a line and not a numerical counter.

[GGTharos]

Because it isn't a TTI counter. It is a 'missile is no longer controllable' counter, ie. after this runs out, there's no chance, no way that missile is hitting anything unless 'anything' flies into the missile.

 

It isn't an actual, calculated TTI.

[ФрогФут]

Because it isn't a TTI counter. It is a 'missile is no longer controllable' counter, ie. after this runs out, there's no chance, no way that missile is hitting anything unless 'anything' flies into the missile.

 

It isn't an actual, calculated TTI.

I'm not sure about that. The manual does not say, the radar always paints the target for 60 seconds. It says, that radar paints the target for 60 seconds, if radar in uncomplete data mode (i.e. you don't have range, target uses jammer, etc.).

[Esac_mirmidon]

The manual says " Время, оставшееся до встречи ракеты с целью. "

 

And in english more or less is : " Time remaining before missile reach target "