Tunguskas .. Oh no not that again...

[EvilBivol-1]

Sorry guys, was in the hospital for a few days (yes, yes, I'm ok... you can stop worrying now...)

 

So... how about use of the guns? :)

[GGTharos]

I hear the guns would do a lot better, though not well enough to bet your life on. ;)

[EvilBivol-1]

Well, my personal view is that if we can agree that there is a realistic chance for the system to knock down an incoming missile, be it with guns or missiles, then what we have in LOMAC right now is fine. WAIT! Here's the explainer... :D

 

First off, you have to consider the limits of the current AI and the fact that it probably forces us into a "yes" or "no" decision for each system. I don't know how complex ED's current model of anti-missile capability is, but I assume its very simple and there is absolutely no chance that they will spend time on "tweaking" a particular system for 1.12. They can, maybe, just turn it off, but not "improve" it.

Forced into a yes/no decision (and assuming we conclude that the real system has some capability of doing it), I would prefer to maintain the current model, because it does, IMO raise the "gameplay" to a more realistic level, even if the capability is exhagarated. Unlike GOYA, I think that in this case, two wrongs CAN make a right, because in the end we have a more complex environment for the A-10 pilot to work in. If a real A-10 pilot knows that there is some chance that his Mav may be shot down on the way, he would probability take certain measures to improve his chances. Those measures may be very different in real life then our own (probably involving wingmen and such...), but at least we now also have to take certain measures. And finally, having taken those measures, we can be more or less assured a kill.

So again, IMHO the "higher workload" introduced by this capability makes air-to-ground work more interesting and realistic overall, maybe at the price of the specific system realism.

But, if we conclude that the system has no real chance of knocking down an incoming Mav, whether with missiles or guns, then I'd prefer ED simply "turn it off" for the Tunguska.

My current opinion is that the guns solution may be workable, but let's hear the experts... :)

[alert_]

After reading all the pages I believe taht "study" sim should attempt "conservative" aproach to to modelling system that are classified to any extend,that is: if there is not enough infromatin about functionality of teh systems modelled dont make any assumption that are not backup by hard facts...

[Weta43]

It's a game, and it improves the gameplay, It's tailorable for those who realy want it or realy don't through the missile effectiveness slider, & although the details of how it does it may not exactly right, as EvilBivol says, the general end result better reflects reality anyway...

And I'm fairly sure that Goya's earlier suggestion that this be taken away & replaced with an increase in random misses from Mavs would go down like a cup of cold sick with A10 flyers generaly.

2 wrongs may not make it right, but maybe more right than leaving the error as it was originaly (SAMs not defending themselves at all), & they do make it more fun.

[SwingKid]

It's a game, and it improves the gameplay,

 

You misspelled "my".

 

-SK

[SwingKid]

Yes it does need optical tracking for missile guidance - but, as I read it, not as a seperate manually operated meassure :) .

 

As you read which - the FAS description or the Russian text?

 

-SK

[Weta43]

There's no wing on ground effect - should we remove the ability to land so that the purity of the simulation isn't corrupted?

 

sorry about the SP, should have written "our"

[Alfa]

As you read which - the FAS description or the Russian text?

 

-SK

 

As I read the bit I quoted from warfare.ru, which clearly is a manufacturer´s description - despite being written in English.

 

Since I dont speak Russsian, I am afraid a Russian version of the text - raped by Babelfish - is more likely to confuse than enlighten me :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Force_Feedback]

As I read the bit I quoted from warfare.ru, which clearly is a manufacturer´s description - despite being written in English.

 

Since I dont speak Russsian, I am afraid a Russian version of the text - raped by Babelfish - is more likely to confuse than enlighten me :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

Let me have a look at the Russian text.

[Alfa]

Hello FF,

 

I believe that the "Russian text" Swingkid is refering to, is a Russian version of the systems description found on this page from fas.org....

 

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/2s6rpt.htm

 

I dont have it, so we will have to ask Swingkid for the Russian version :)

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[SwingKid]

http://forum.lockon.ru/showpost.php?p=134143&postcount=124

 

-SK

[Force_Feedback]

Interesting facts besides guidance system (not there yet), number of bullets: 1936, firing rate: 4060-4810 shots per minute. It has a gun firing mode of 100 shots (so after the gunner pulls the trigger, the thing will shoot 100 rounds). Muzzle velocity of bullets: 960-980 m/s.

 

About the missile:

The missile consists of two stages, and accelerator and a guidance/penetrator section. The accelerator accelerates the missile out of the transport container, and fires for 2.6 seconds, then the penetrator (mass: 18.5kg) separates and continues flying unpowered for the rest of the trajectory, while a tracer is burning at the end. The average speed of the missile is 600 m/s with an average lateral G-load of 18G, which ensures the engagement of targets flting at up to 500 m/s, in either forward and rear engagement hemispheres, with a maximum manoeuvring of 5-7G of the target. It has a cumulative and expanding rod warhead, in a rod-shape, activated either by laser fusing or by contact, the probability of a contact fuse activation is not less than 60%. The warhead featured a cutting and an incinerating component in order to defeat the target's skeleton and to light up the fuel. During small misses (1.5m) the warhead also has a shockwave effect .

The proximity sensor with a mass of 0.8kg features four lasers with optics, resulting in 8 beams perpendicular to the missile's axis. The laser fuse is activated when the penetrator is 1km away from the target, and during firings on grount targets it is shut down prior to missile launch. The missile guidance system has no limitation of height.

 

The search radar 1RL144M [THIS IS A COMPLETE TRANSLATION, SO IT MAY BE HARD TO READ AND WILL BE GRAMMATICALLY VERY CHOPPY.]

 

The search radar of the Tunguska complex consisted of a coherent-impulse radar, with a circular field of view with radar waves in the decimeter frequency range. A high frequency stability of the transmitter, in the form of a generator with an enhancing grid, the use of of a filtering system which is capable to destinguish moving targets from the local enviorement (30-40dB). Which allowed for detection of targets at the background of the ground and passive clutter.

The selection of repetition mode and frequency in automatic mode allowed for target tracking with speed, azimuth and range, which allowed for automatic target designation and tracking and also this information went through a digital system to act as a reserve variant when the enemy employs significant ECM inside the Tunguska's range.

To allow for operation on the move, the system employed a electromechanical inertial and course determination system, to calculate the movement of teh vehicle.

During a transmitter impulse power of 7-10 KWt, the receiver sensitivity is something like 2x10 -14 Watt. When the antenna is targeted at an azimuth of 5 degrees and with a location angle of 15 degrees, the station will detect a target with a probability of 0.9 at altitudes from 0.025 to 3.5km at a range of 16-19km.

The station's resoloution and square-root errors in the resolvement of coordinates are, respectively, 500m and 20m in distance, 5-6 degrees and 1 degree. In azimuth, ut to 15 deg. and 5 deg. from the relief(ground) angle.

 

Target tracking system [AGAIN, SORRY FOR CHOPPYNESS, BUT MY DIRECT TRANSLATION SKILLS ARE NOT REALLY ON A UN-LEVEL :p SO SENTENCES MAY BE SOMEWHAT WIERD]

 

The target tracking system consisted of of a coherent-impulse radar with a centimeter frequency range, with a dual channel angular target tracking system, with filtering algorythms for moving targets in the channels of the automatic rangefinder and angular tracking. The noise coefficient of passive clutter and ground relief reflections was 20-25dB. The station did the transition to autotracking in the search and target designation modes, withing the limitations of the sector, corresponding to 120 degrees. In azimuth 0-15 degrees above the ground angle. With a transmitter impulse power of 150 kWt, the receiver had a sensitivity of 3x10 -13 Wt. In the circular directional diagram of 2 degrees (in azimuth and ground angle), the station had a probability of 0.9 of a transition to autotracking of three targets flying at altitudes of 25-1000m, 10-13 km during target designation from an outside radar source, and 7.5-8km when using its own sector target search for a fighter target.

The resoloution os the station and its square-root errors were corresponding, not less than 75m and 2m for range and 2 degrees and 2 d.u. at angular coordinates.

~~~

The station had means of defense against active jamming and also had the ability to track targets during ECM becuase of the combination of radar and optical systems of the complex. Because of these combination, shifting of working frequencies, depending on time and distance within a battle group, a battery, on a distance of not more than 200m from the battlegoup, could provide a reliable mean of defense against missiles of type "Shrike" or "Standard ARM"

 

 

[i'M STILL READING, BUT I WAS ON PAGE 3, LOL SO I MAY HAVE MORE INFO]

[Alfa]

Thanks for the effort FF :)

 

You are doing good mate - it is a hell of a lot better than babel fish! :D

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[Guest ruggbutt]

Nice try FF! I wonder where LOC is with all this. He has a Russian girlfriend. So we have a translator "in the family". :D

[bSr.LCsta]

it is my personal opinion that this thread sucks the big one, and needs to be moved to the boring section. ;)

sorry to offend anyone.

[Force_Feedback]

Here's some more I translated.

 

The missile

 

The penetrator (or coasing component; 18.5kg) had a starting velocity of around 900 m/s and flew the whole trajescory (after the 2.6 second booster burn) on inertia. It had no sustainer motor, only a tracer for the backup optical system. Almost the whole length of the coasting stage consisted of the warhead, with expanding rob and fragmentation charges (the expanding rods were long steel rods with cube-shaped fragments attatched to it with and average weight of 2gr.), when the warhead detonated, it sent out a ring of debris into the flightpath of the incoming target, cutting everything up in a 5m radius.

 

operations

 

The war machine usually worked autonomously, but it was not excluded from work in the Command of Air Defense of the Soviet Union. During autonomous applications, target searching in a circular pattern with the radar or optical system or is a sector search mode with the use of the tracking or optical system. IFF was done with the help of the built-in interrogator 1RL138, the tracking of targets at angular coordinates (automatic with the help of tracking system, semi-automatic with the use of optical targeting sight 1A29M and the so called ''inertial'', with the help of the digital processing system during a predetermined linear movement of the target with a constant speed, determined on earlies stages and ''distance'' (automatic or manual, with the use of the tracking station automatic, with the use of the search station; inertial, and also with a predetermined speed, chosen by the commander according to the type of target).

 

The combination of the different means of target tracking with angular coordinates and distance is done by these modes:

 

Mode 1: At three target coordinates, received from radar system.

Mode 2: With the target range, acquired by the radar system, and at its angle coordinates, received from teh optical tracking system.

Mode 3: Inertial tracking of three traget coordinates, acquired from the computer system.

Mode 4: With the use of angular coordinates, received from the optical targeting sight, and a target speed preset.

 

And still more to come...

[S77th-GOYA]

Anyway, we got the word from someone in the know that the Pk would be incredibly low so as to make the attempt would be effectively suicidal.

 

Perhaps you could expound on this, GG. It seems the debate is still not finished.

[Alfa]

Perhaps you could expound on this, GG. It seems the debate is still not finished.

 

Perhaps you could make the effort to read the description FF took the time to translate and base your opinion on that? :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[GGTharos]

I'm in agreement with Alfa ... with apologies, not trying to be snobby but I may not expound.

[S77th-GOYA]

Perhaps you could make the effort to read the description FF took the time to translate and base your opinion on that? :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

Perhaps you shouldn't assume that I haven't and shouldn't make scolding comments based on that assumption. Perhaps I should have made my request more precise to avoid responses like yours.

 

GG, what makes your source "in the know"?

[GGTharos]

Service.

[Alfa]

Perhaps you shouldn't assume that I haven't and shouldn't make scolding comments based on that assumption. Perhaps I should have made my request more precise to avoid responses like yours.

 

Perhaps 90% of your own replies are of this nature and perhaps you should start changing that - especially considering that you obviously dont like this kind of response yourself(!).

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

[S77th-GOYA]

Perhaps 90% of your own replies are of this nature and perhaps you should start changing that - especially considering that you obviously dont like this kind of response yourself(!).

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

 

Out of fairness I just reread my last 100 posts. Your claim of 90% is unfounded and completely unrealistic.

[GGTharos]

I claim that all the posts need to be remodelled - they're just too simple to encompass the entire complexity.

 

ED? ;)