Targeting Sights

[GAJ52]

The targeting sights for the various weapons look very elaborate but the manual doesn't really explain how to use them i.e. what do all the different graduations mean.

[tonym]

I agree with you that there really is no information re use of the targetting sights. By trial and error I have discovered that the way to use them is to line up your target with either the cross hairs or the junction of the "T" sight, using the zoomed view. Then lock the target. When locked, find the green part circle (usually above the cross hairs) center on this & fire. Check where the round lands (in zoomed view) & adjust elevation etc. accordingly.

Hope this helps.

[GAJ52]

Thanks Tony

 

That's basically what I am doing, not very successfully but its a start. You mention the green circle, when I do this its yellow - what does that mean ?

[tonym]

Hi GAJ52

Sorry the circle is yellow, but sometimes turns blue when a hit is scored. Strange!

[salsantana]

I'm hoping to learn the meaning of, in gunner's sight in the T-90, the steps on the "ladder" (the vertical line with numbered "steps"). If distance is known (and as it appears to be a linear relationship because divisions on ladder are equally spaced), we could come up with a multiplier to give what number on ladder will get you close. If a target is 4 miles away and you hit it when the ladder #8 intersected the target, I assume you'd hit a target 2 miles away when ladder #4 intersected the target.

Whatever it takes to conserve ammo and minimize reloads when trying many fire-for-effect shots. Like the feature "Launch Permission Override" in Russian jets, it'd be useful to be able to switch to an instant reload mode in armor at least for figuring out the ladder bars.

[Wychmaster]

@salsantana

 

I have to check if what I am going to say is really how it works in the T-90, but IIRC you can adjust the distance setting of you reticle using the "pos1" and "end" keys. The horizontal line has to be placed over the correct distance marker for the ammo you want to fire.

I will check it later and give you an update.

EDIT:

As said, you can use the "Pos 1" and "End" keys to adjust your calibrated range. Just bring the horizontal line to the correct distance mark. For AP rounds you need to use the marks on the left side. For HE, use the right ones with "O" below them. Don't get confused by the "H" of the other set of marks. It doesn't refer to HE. The letter of the currently selected round is also displayed in the black box at the bottom center. When you adjust the sight, you will notice that a set of horizontally aligned marks moves up and down too. Those marks help you with the lead but more importantly, the horizontal line through their centers is the elevation you need to use. For a static target put the intersection point of this imaginary line and the vertical line over the target and fire. In the images below, I fired an AP and an HE round at targets that are 3000m away. You can see how I aimed and were the bullets impacted. Note that there is some random dispersion. That's why the AP round was slightly off. The second shot hit, put I forgot to make a screenshot.

If you don't know the distance, you can use the marks on the lower right. Bring them over your target and try to fit it between one set of marks. The number above it is the distance times 100 in meters. It is calibrated for tank sized targets.

 

One thing to note: The procedure I described is the "backup". You have a laser range finder that automatically adjusts the gun elevation (default key "L") so that you you just need to place the center mark over the target to actually hit it. For automatic lead computation use "tracking mode" (right shift + L) and mouse axis mode (middle mouse button). If you move your reticle at the correct speed so that it stays over the target, the correct lead is automatically added the moment you press the fire button. So just keep the target under the reticle, lase and fire. Can't be any easier.

Another important thing: If you want to use the "backup procedure" for any reason (like battle damage, which is currently not simulated), you have to reset the laser range (right ctrl + L). Otherwise you need to subtract the distance from your calibrated distance, but this isn't very accurate because the required elevation for 4000m isn't 2 times the elevation for 2000m

 

EDIT2:

The markings on your reticle line are the distances for your coax machine gun. Press "left control + space" to fire it (secondary weapon). In contrast to other tanks (western?), the coax can't be selected as primary weapon and thus, you can't use the laser range finder and tracking mode for it. But note, that the gun elevation is set by the range-finder and the coax is influenced by it too. So you have to reset the laser range first (right ctrl+L) when using the coax. Otherwise, the marks do not represent the correct distance. Also, watch out that a launch elevation is automatically added when you select the missile rounds. So don't use the coax when you have those selected.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Wychmaster

[salsantana]

@Wychmaster

WOW!!! A thousand thanks for this!! I've struggled with the mystery of the rounds that I fire at pretty high angle that detonate mere tens of yards away. I know the real-world equipment is capable of delivering a round within yards at ridiculously long range, but as inventory dwindles the reload time continues to increase. "Argh!" says I.

I have been wondering about HE vs AP physics....... thanks for the detail on that; I presume it's contingent on weight of AP vs HE, with AP being the heavier round, given the powder in the HE is much lighter........ just my guess. I suppose the max range of any of the MBT's is 3 km or just shy of 2 miles. You got real close in the examples in which you knew the actual distance. That's yet another piece of this technology you've further enlightened me to....... the laser ranging device. I'm ancient enough to recall when the first laser-ranging transits for land surveying came along; always found such equipment quite interesting.

There was a fantastic documentary on tank school that revealed a depth of training quite equivalent to flight school; I hope ED continues to develop Combined Arms or at least its documentation and training resources. I wonder if ED will ever add "player-can-drive" ground vehicle cockpits? I've yearned for any tank sim on par with "Pacific Islands" on Amiga or the PC's "M1 Tank Platoon". Yes, I did say "Amiga"...... considering it was the platform upon which "Falcon" flight sim was built and became a worldwide hit, its detailed operations with four groups of tanks was all the more amazing because the entire software was at most 500kB.

Your effort very much appreciated, no wasted words. I'll be busy with this stuff for a while

[Wychmaster]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb salsantana:

I have been wondering about HE vs AP physics....... thanks for the detail on that; I presume it's contingent on weight of AP vs HE, with AP being the heavier round, given the powder in the HE is much lighter........ just my guess.

AP rounds (tankers call them "Sabot" -> APFSDS = Armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot) are pure kinetic energy projectiles. The energy they have when they leave the barrel is "all" they got to penetrate tank armor. HEAT (High explosive anti tank) also penetrate using kinetic energy, but the energy is "stored in the projectile". On impact, a detonation transforms a steel cone into a hot metal dart with extremely high kinetic energy that pierces through armor. HEAT is just an acronym and has nothing to do with thermal heat. You can read about this here:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_anti-tank 

So because AP rounds are designed for maximal kinetic energy, they fly a lot faster and have a lower trajectory than HEAT rounds. HEAT has the benefit, that its kinetic energy is always the same while sabot rounds get weaker with distance. Which round to choose depends on the target and distance. Against armor, I have read somewhere that you use AP up to 3500m and HEAT above that. But in DCS I haven't really noticed AP getting that much weaker than HEAT on max range shots. Also, the higher trajectory and travel time of HEAT make it easier to miss. So I use AP against armor up to the max range where the laser gives me a valid firing solution.

Against soft targets, you should always use HEAT because of the explosion effect. AP tends to fly through those targets without doing much damage. I don't know if there are any ground targets in DCS where this might happen, but I have seen it several times when shooting at choppers. They have much better damage models.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb salsantana:

I suppose the max range of any of the MBT's is 3 km or just shy of 2 miles. You got real close in the examples in which you knew the actual distance.

Well, in DCS it is actually 5km and I think in real-life tanks they get even further nowadays. But that is something a real tanker might answer. Anyways, you should really get used to the range-finder, tracking mode, and mouse axis mode. I can't stress enough how important the combination of those three is to get good at gunnery. While the shots get a bit harder above 4000m, I have no problem hitting moving targets at 3000m while driving myself with maximum speed and I wouldn't think of me as a particularly good gunner. I just know how it works.

So it might be useful to know how those "backup sights" work in case we get better damage models and the laser might be damaged or you want to shoot a heli without triggering its laser warning system. But apart from that, you should always "Laze and Blaze"  

vor 2 Stunden schrieb salsantana:

I hope ED continues to develop Combined Arms or at least its documentation and training resources. I wonder if ED will ever add "player-can-drive" ground vehicle cockpits?

I am not expecting any frequent updates, because ED has so much else to do right now. I am confident, that they will continue CA after some other projects are finally finished but I think we are talking about years. I also hope that we will see full fidelity tanks in the future

Regarding the documentation:

I think that CA is really a hidden gem and most people will actually like it, if they know how to use it properly. Therefore,  I have started to write a vehicle guide to show people everything there is to know on driving and fighting in vehicles. Maybe I will also make a video series on that. Sadly, most content you find on youtube is not really helpful in learning CA "the right way".

If you have any other questions, feel free to ask

EDIT:

By the way, I made a small mistake in y previous post. You have to use the imaginary line on top of the horizontal marks as elevation. Maybe that's why my first AP shot missed

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Wychmaster

[salsantana]

Wychmaster, again and again thank you for the copious sharing of knowledge in this rather esoteric subject. Soon after last comm I'd flown some Mig-29 missions, went to F6 view of the pizza being delivered to the tanks and POOF!!! I ended up with scrambled SSD boot/game drive, almost as if my system was the actual target. Between reinstall and restoration, and especially downloading the entire World 2.7 AND dozen purchased modules, pursuit of CA skills derailed but back in the saddle now

Your last post is full of inspiring ideas; "I think that CA is really a hidden gem.......". Much agreed!!! I am absolutely interested in your vehicle guide idea. Feel free to ping me if you think a 2nd set of eyes (proofreading, casual editing) would be helpful; I've always enjoyed working with technical documentation, spent 40 years as draftsman/tech illustrator/writer/etc.

There was a documentary on cable TV years ago about tank school...... wow........ I'd no idea it's in so many ways as demanding, sophisticated, and thorough as flight school. I don't mean to discuss "other" products, but to put it in terms of a wishlist for CA, in the early 90's on Commodore Amiga there was a tank platoon sim "Pacific Islands", and on PC "M1 Tank Platoon". I mention them only as a direction CA could lean if more focused development were to come to be....... they really demonstrated the tactical aspects such as formations, proper use of weaponry. M1 also provided the actual cockpit, which would certainly be necessary for "full fidelity" tanks.

 

[Wychmaster]

Am 18.3.2022 um 21:34 schrieb salsantana:

Your last post is full of inspiring ideas; "I think that CA is really a hidden gem.......". Much agreed!!! I am absolutely interested in your vehicle guide idea. Feel free to ping me if you think a 2nd set of eyes (proofreading, casual editing) would be helpful; I've always enjoyed working with technical documentation, spent 40 years as draftsman/tech illustrator/writer/etc.

I am half-way through the german version, afterwards, I ll do a video tutorial series in english and then I ll translate both to the other language. So still some work to do. Since I am writing in LaTeX, the plan is to publish it on GitHub and let the community keep it up to date. So you will be able to do proofreading and suggest changes using Github pull requests

Am 18.3.2022 um 21:34 schrieb salsantana:

I don't mean to discuss "other" products, but to put it in terms of a wishlist for CA, in the early 90's on Commodore Amiga there was a tank platoon sim "Pacific Islands", and on PC "M1 Tank Platoon". I mention them only as a direction CA could lean if more focused development were to come to be....... they really demonstrated the tactical aspects such as formations, proper use of weaponry. M1 also provided the actual cockpit, which would certainly be necessary for "full fidelity" tanks.

 

I don't think they mind mentioning old product from the past, that are long gone (correct me if I am wrong).  I just played "M1 Tank Platoon II" and loved it. But many things I enjoyed in this game can already be done in DCS CA too. It still needs some adjustments, but I am confident that CA will get some love in the future and that we hopefully will get full-fidelity, multi-crew vehicles .