AI vs me

[BSS_Vidar]

I've been flying against the highest level AI settings with some success. 7 out of 10 sorties, I bag the AI, but only after about 20 or more minutes of intense maneuvering to fool the AI's energy fighting strategy. The other 30% is from loosing my engine by trying to match energy states - which I have NEVER been able to attain. I've even tried not to engage to see if I could match energy status with the AI. My engine gives out doing so almost every time.

 

The AI is fun and challenging, but at the same time damned frustrating and completely unrealistic. Being a computer I'm flying against, it knows my exact energy state, alpha, where my gun sight is pointing in space at all times, no matter what his aspect to me is. I've seen it make just the most minute bank, or pitch maneuver to completely ruin a gun solution... when a live pilot would have no idea where my piper is to make such decisions.

 

In some testing to see what happens, I have gotten the AI to bleed down with me in a canopy to canopy rolling scissor. At what is perceived to be matching energy states in a neutral stand-off, a little cross control and slight reduction in power by me to get him to overshoot is initiated. Once the AI realizes it can not make the turn with me, it immediately breaks off and extends to the vertical with the most impressive display of instant energy obtaining in excess of 500ft or more of altitude above me just to resume its energy fighting program. Where does this energy state come from?

 

All-in-all however, I enjoy the challenge and have really learned to fly the Pony to the very edge of its performance envelope. If were too easy, I guess I would get board with it. ;-)

 

Vidar

 

BSS214.com

[ARM505]

I also find fighting the AI to be an immersion killer, this topic has been discussed a bit already, but yeah, most agree the AI is ridiculously (inhumanly) good in some aspects and poor in others.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would pay full module price for a DCS:AI module where nothing visible in the sim changed except a massive improvement in AI all round. I'm not expecting an Iain M. Banks sentient 'Mind' level, just something that doesn't blow it all out the water in most cases.

 

Across the spectrum of sims/games I play (DCS, ARMA etc) the AI so often stands out as the deal killer in so many situations. Whether it's retarded wingmen, ridiculously good enemies that can see through buildings/trees but can't realise you're walking around behind them etc, it always feels like somethings going to come along and smack you in the face saying 'Well, THAT wasn't realistic AT ALL!' That being said, it's pretty impressive how far along we've come, and the number of factors that the AI has to be able to deal with is definitely an incredible challenge for developers of modern sims!

[Konrad Friedrich]

The main problem for most beginners (or even intermediates) is that the AI is really on razors edge all the time.

The essential part flying and fighting with the P-51 is the trimming of the plane and engine management.

It's not an option - it's all about trim efficiency and controll of the behaviour of the plane.

The AI's control of the plane at the very edge of physics is sometimes a bit exaggerated, because it is able to perform these trick repeatedly, at will - and as often as no human would be able.

A real human would suffer from g-forces (and you really suffer here) - a human would be getting exhausted, getting physically and mentally tired.

But in the end - as a player you're not physically challanged either ;)

 

And believe me - I also really know where the gun pipper of my opponent is pointing all the time.

Until I make a mistake I'm pretty much able to fly in a way that my opponent is unable to get a clear shot.

 

I can handle the AI (and most of the human opponents) by flying the Mustang with an engine setting of 2700-3000rpm and manifold pressure of 46-50 inHG.

I never overheat the engine.

 

When you start flying against human opponents online you may whish these guys are AI...

Why? Well, because additionally they fly unpredictable.

When they start to do more or less unrealistic maneuvers like snap rolling all the time (I think only insane real world pilots would have done this ;)) - you are really given a headache how to cope with that - and how to find a solution.

Learn to manage energy - trim, smooth controll - and learn some unpredictable tricks, too ;)

Edited May 17, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[gavagai]

The main problem for most beginners (or even intermediates) is that the AI is really on razors edge all the time.

 

Yes, and I would add:

 

Some are not used to same aircraft matchups. It is a different kind of challenge when you have no specific advantage of any kind against your opponent.

 

Anyway, I love the DCS AI: it actually fights. I'm usually the guy in the energy fighter in WW2 sims, so I haven't had too much trouble adjusting to the AI's tactics. After the merge, the first thing many try to do in a same-aircraft-matchup is get on the 6 of their opponent: wrong! The first goal is to gain an energy advantage. Then you convert that potential energy for angles and deliver the coup de grace.

[Konrad Friedrich]

The first goal is to gain an energy advantage.

 

right! ;)

[BSS_Vidar]

I'm fully aware of the parameters to manage the engine, and trimming. The times I do loose the engine is to purposely evaluate what it takes to maintain and exceed the energy state of the AI. It's not realistic, but as I said makes it more of a challenge to overcome. I can stay away from the bogey all day long staying within those parameters.

 

As far as flying against someone on line.. I don't see a problem winning most of the fights. In regards to knowing where your bogey's piper is, I'm talking about the tiniest of deflection that the AI is fully aware of and can defeat with a slight wing dip, not in general to the bogey's aspect like a human flyer. I too am aware of my bogeys aspect - but exactly where his piper is? You'd have to be in his cockpit to know that!

 

\/

[Konrad Friedrich]

Check out the videos I posted in the 'show me your mad dogfight skills' thread.

I always meet the energy state of the AI - without overheating.

Most of the time my manifold setting will stay below 50 inHg.

Higher settings are only useful to catch up with the AI (or to make a run ;)).

 

And don't forget - you are shooting with bullets as thick and long as your index finger.

And you are shooting at considerable high speeds maybe even under heavy g-loads.

There where several ace pilots in ww2 that regularly depleted their entire ammo for a single aerial victory.

It is really hard to hit a moving target like a plane. Especially a plane piloted by a guy that is not willing to get shot down...

 

When I started flying the P-51 I also thought that there is something wrong...

There was nothing wrong. It was my lack of ability to handle the Mustang.

 

I gain energy advantage within 2 or three turns - and then I'm on the six of the AI buddy.

And it's not very likely that he's shaking me.

It takes time and patience to - as Gavagai said - deliver the coup de grace.

 

Meanwhile I'm able to cope with a '4 FW 190 AI vs. 3 P-51 AI' plus 'me' dogfight - and always win - and most likely shoot down at least 2, often 3 of the AI Focke Wulfs.

 

This is not shamless bragging.

It's really all in your flying.

You really have to learn the P-51 in all of it's aspects.

In the beginning I was really surprised which effort it takes to master it.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[gavagai]

As far as flying against someone on line.. I don't see a problem winning most of the fights.

 

Vidar, you need to find better opponents! Try a duel against Josh Echo and see how it works out. He absolutely destroyed me a couple months ago. Of course, I was very green to the Mustang then and didn't even realize it had WEP (not included in the tutorial, so I think I would do better now). There are some very formidable pilots out there, and my guess is that Josh Echo would still beat me 9 times out of 10 if we dueled today.

[Konrad Friedrich]

Josh Echo and see how it works out.

 

Joshe Echo is here flying the Mustang... ?

mothermarryandjoseph...

Poor online pilots... :P

 

Thats good news - a fine virtual pilot and a real nice guy.

Hope we meet in the virtual sky of DCS.

I remember when he blew me out of the skies of RoF.

He teached me a lot - and I learned a lot.

(And his german is pretty good :smartass:)

Edited May 17, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[Echo38]

That'd be me, Konrad. I can't fly very often though, because of the old hand injuries. Regrettably, I only fly about once every couple of months. If my hands were good for it, I'd be flying every day; I am very much in love with DCS, despite my absence.

Thanks for the kind words from you both--except, as I recall, Gav, I spun into the ground on our first duel and toasted my own engine in the second duel. : D

I don't remember actually shooting you down, although I think you did over-G your wing on the third duel. (In my defense, I'm terribly rusty!) They were really fun fights; we'll have to have some more sometime. And, Konrad, we must have some also.

 

As for the A.I.: I agree that it doesn't exactly fly like a human, Vidar, but let's be reasonable here; show me a sim with better A.I. There isn't one, as far as I know. Other sims I've flown all have ludicrously easy-to-kill, incredibly stupid A.I. by comparison. The DCS: P-51D A.I. isn't quite meant to be a believably human opponent--this is an impossibility with today's technology. It is, rather, meant to help us improve our virtual flying skills, and it does that very well--better than any other sim's A.I. Is there room for improvement? Of course--but that's true of any aspect of any sim. I think that, like DCS in general, what we've got is about as good as one can reasonably ask for in a high-quality P.C. flight sim, given the market.

 

The best pilots I've encountered in this sim are Viks (yes, the R.o.F. developer) and Xcom (the guy who runs the Israeli dogfighting server). Both downed me much more often than I downed them, back when I was regularly flying our P-51. I second Gav's suggestion, Vidar--drop into Xcom's server and have some duels with him, and suddenly the A.I.'s energy management won't seem that unbelievably inhuman. Some of our deadlier pilots are about that good. (The A.I. does cheat a little, though; I don't think it has to deal with engine torque or overheating. On the flip side, it doesn't use flaps or WEP, which sort of balances it out.)

Edited May 17, 2013 by Echo38

[Konrad Friedrich]

Hey Josh!

Nice to meet you again!

Not nice that you still have problems with your hands...

 

But - hey -when you're able to go online - I'm with you!

I still remember when you played havoc amongst a big bunch of Fokker DVII and DrI flying an old outdated N17... That was fun to watch! :D :pilotfly:

 

Hope we meet up in the virtual skies here!

Maybe we can improve your knowledge in german language and especially german swearing :D

See you!

 

P.S.: Viks was the first online opponent I met here at DCS ;)

unfortunately I disconnected and was unable to get on that server again :cry:

And yes, Xcom is good, really good.

 

Regards

Konrad, callsign: 'Duc'

[Echo38]

Oh! I just saw ZaltysZ post on this forum; I've never flown with him on P-51D, but I fought him several times in Rise of Flight. Though we were a pretty even match back then, these days my money says that he'd kick my empennage handily. Try seeing if he's interested in some duels with you, Vidar.

[Der_Fred]

To beat the AI one has to equal or better it's energy tactics. As the AI is a 'computer' it's limited to the imagination of it's programmer. OK it will fly perfect, but it's programmer is somewhat a dull person :)

 

You've trimmed, with rudder a few notches to the right, works ok.

You don't want your coolant and oil to overheat, so just open both radiators full. Set prop speed to around 2700rpm (you can go to 3000 but you limit your time here). You don't need flaps.. I repeat :)

 

Now comes the fancy bits

If you keep 'total energy' up and fly higher than the AI... it's freaks out and will fight you. This is programmed into it. If it gets higher than you with more energy it just runs away - you might as well replay at this point.

 

Ah!! keeping energy up you say... yup.. this is how you do it.

 

Don't turn too tight, make it tight enough to turn just inside the AI.

Fly in the vertical, as mentioned, it 'forces' the AI to fight.

 

While going up and down...

1) On the way down push throttle to 60MP - this helps you gain speed real fast.

2) As you bottom out to go up.. start reducing throttle until you top out at around 40MP.

 

You're always gently shoving the throttle back and forth.. you temps never budge.. within a turns you will be solid behind the AI.. then it's boring = no challenge

 

I should program the AI... my pilots will nab you all the time :)

[Echo38]

To beat the AI one has to equal or better it's energy tactics.

 

My energy management is worse than the A.I.'s, at present, but I'm able to beat him by confusing him. I don't have to equal or better his energy tactics--I just have to use tactics that he isn't good at countering, such as scissors (and high-speed, low-altitude defensive circles with hard break turns into him at the right moment).

 

it's programmer is somewhat a dull person

 

Its programmer is brilliant. You know, I'm getting a little ****ing tired of hearing you always slagging this sim. This sim is objectively the best ****ing flight sim there's ever been; there's never been a flight sim that's done more things right and fewer things wrong. That doesn't make it perfect, but you're always trash-talking DCS like you're some shill for Maddox Games or something. I don't like it.

Edited May 17, 2013 by Echo38

[Der_Fred]

Did you get out of the wrong side of bed this morning ??

 

As mentioned in a previous post.. Most (if not all) AI game programming is seriously lacking.. not just DCS. A fact is a fact, simple.

 

Just because I mention it here (as I and many others would on IL2).. you get all babba with me. My heart bleeds custard.

 

:)

[Der_Fred]

.. and if you knew my aka for the banana forums ( actually that wouldn't be hard to work out), I have nothing but nice things to say about DCS, in comparison to IL2.

 

We should be able to make comparisons between games, as this would help the devs get the best of both worlds....

 

Maybe this sort of thing hasn't surfaced on you side somewhere... there.

:)

[Echo38]

Do you have any idea how complicated A.I. programming is? There's a good reason why every single attempt at an A.I. blows: A.I. programming is extremely difficult. Trying to make a believable A.I. has stumped the best programmers in the world for decades. Trying to do that in a manner that doesn't use up a lot of processing power is an even worse problem. Add fluid physics to the mix and it's a right royal mess.

[Der_Fred]

Yes i know how difficult it is... for 'in the box stuff' (saying this this kills me :) )

 

Neural networks, FFTs, computer algorithms, applied math, math, physics, Asm, C, C++, Basic, VBasic, ..etc (Done it all 'wink' )

 

BUT... basic common sense and imagination seems to be left out of the equation :) 'additional wink'

[Der_Fred]

Damm.. I forgot to mention 'Chaos'... helps with understanding fluid mechanics, and similar scenarios

[BSS_Vidar]

Don't get me wrong! I am a 12 year vet with combat flight sims. CFS2, IL2, RoF, LOMAC, DCS A-10 and now the P-51. The AI in this sim is simply the best so far.

 

As far as War Emergency Power in the sim, that I was not aware of, nor can I find how to activate it. It explains a lot too! Is it listed under another nomenclature? Or is there something clickable in the 'pit?

 

Now knowing there is a WEP function, I'm Purdy happy with the results I'm having after all. Now I know why the AI can run me down in a flat run too! ;-)

 

\/

[Konrad Friedrich]

Vidar,

in order to access the extra power you need to push the throttle past the gate stop.

This is protected by a simple piece of wire (so that the ground crew can see that the pilot used it and the engine needs extra examination).

I think it's activated by pressing 'e' (don't know - I've mapped it to my HOTAS).

It only works when the throttle is set to max.

After that you can access it at any time by pushing throttle to max.

Be carefull - it gives a plus of 6 inHg and should be limited to 5 minutes of use.

Max output will be 67 inHg.

 

But ... to be honest... I never use it. I'm quite happy with settings around 50 inHg, only pushing to 61 when accelerating.

Edited May 18, 2013 by Konrad Friedrich

[Echo38]

Now knowing there is a WEP function, I'm Purdy happy with the results I'm having after all. Now I know why the AI can run me down in a flat run too!

 

As I said earlier, the A.I. does not ever use WEP, nor does it ever use flaps in combat. (At least, last time I checked--which was quite a few versions ago.) For this reason, you may want to likewise handicap yourself to prevent yourself from becoming overconfident.

[gavagai]

Josh,

 

I noticed the P-51 AI using flaps during a scissors yesterday. I'll see if I can get a screenshot next time.

[BSS_Vidar]

Oh yeah... they use flaps. See it all the time. I can't see how going to the virticle leaving me standing still as they do from a low energy state without WEP. I stated in another thread tha wep is not listed in the sim version but it listed in the game version. One of my squadron mates has it listed in both.

 

 

V

[Echo38]

Oh! Last time I fought the A.I. was either in the last version of the beta, or the first release version. So, I guess they added flap usage in after that. Cool! Uh, my bad--maybe I should have a few goes at the latest version's A.I. and see what else is new before I open my mouth again.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Echo38