Calls for ACMI,getting frustrated with quickstart mission

[TheDoctor]

I have to say I'm getting more and more frustrated with the P-51 vs P-51 quickstart mission.

I get killed effortlessly within one single minute, no matter what I do.

I look at every of these encounters with tacview and I can't say what's wrong.

So I want to learn fromn someone who does better...:helpsmilie:

 

Ok I know, there is a whole thread full of videos but those are impressive but of no help :(

I haven't yet found an ACMI file posted where I can study better tactics.

 

So would kindly ask everyone who is able to shoot that darn bird down to post his tacview files in this thread, so me and others can learn.

 

I'll start with my futile efforts...

ACMI.zip

[Konrad Friedrich]

You may want to contact 'WildBillKelsoe' - or he may drop in anyway.

He does some Tacview files to study that AI - and he is beating it regularly.

And he is a very good virtual pilot who has a good idea what he is doing.

There must be a thread somewhere about his tacview thing.

 

Don't worry - everybody was heavily challanged by this AI.

You really have to learn the Mustang.

And then it's getting really exciting and fun ;)

Check out the Israeli DCS server - they provide online dogfighting. There is most likely someone around who is willing to help you.

Or go to Virtual Aerobatics and ask some of the VH guys - they really know how to handle the bird.

And if you go online and find a guy with the callsign 'Duc' - you have found me - and I'd be happy to give you a helping hand :)

[ZaltysZ]

Extending wont work while having such small initial separation and energy difference. Basically, all tracks except the first were a "no no".

 

You do a right thing when you go for a loop like in the first track, however you should level out and begin climbing the moment enemy passes you instead of continuing a dive. Remember, enemy is turning while you are entering a loop - you are converting speed to altitude, when he is simply wasting the speed. You can easily exploit this small energy difference while you are at the top of the loop. Enemy will have to go defensive, because you will stay longer in the climb.

[gavagai]

I would be happy to share some tracks, and have even saved some, but they are impossible to find in the DCS world folder.

 

What is the trick for exporting tracks to share with others?

 

-----------

 

Ah, figured out that it saves tracks in an entirely different place. Here is a quick one I just did. No, I didn't use the gyro sight. I still shoot better, err, less poorly, with the fixed ring.:P

 

Basically, work the AI into a rolling scissors and you will win every time. You don't have to go completely vertical on the merge, but just use an energy conserving turn and stay *just* in front of the AI's guns.

 

Fwiw, I am using a force feedback joystick, and that helps a lot with staying on the edge.

P51vsP51.zip

Edited May 18, 2013 by gavagai

[ZaltysZ]

I would be happy to share some tracks, and have even saved some, but they are impossible to find in the DCS world folder.

 

What is the trick for exporting tracks to share with others?

 

Tracks (.trk) go to C:\Users\your_user_name\Saved Games\DCS\Tracks. If you want acmi files, you will need tacview (http://lomac.strasoftware.com/tacview-en.php). Install it, enable lua export and your played missions and tracks will produce acmi files.

[gavagai]

Thanks Zaltys, good link!

 

----------

 

Ok, here is a fight recorded with tacview! I hope it might help. The first thing I see after the merge is that the AI makes a *very* hard turn for angles, which means it bleeds too much energy. I can't promise that the rest of what I do is correct, but I am confident that an energy conserving turn is a good move after the merge.

 

:thumbup:

 

----------

 

Adding another ACMI. This time I tried a vertical merge. It works ok, but I don't like the way it leaves me sluggish and unable to control well. There was a time when I *always* went vertical on a merge. With more experience I decided that a climbing turn can be just as good or better depending on the situation.

 

Another important difference is lead versus lag pursuit. After watching the first ACMI, I was a little horrified at how deeply I was cutting off the turning circle. A good human opponent would use that as an opportunity to reverse and force a nose to nose fight. This time I made a conscious effort to hold a lag pursuit until I was more sure of my position. Basically, pick a spot on your canopy and try to hold the bandit there in the turn. If you can do that, then you have control of the situation, and can begin to gradually transition to a pure pursuit (slowly!). With time you get a very good firing position.

 

----------

 

And a third to show why an immediate scissors fight is the quickest way to beat the AI (probably not so easy against a human).

Tacview-20130518-194219.txt.zip

Tacview-20130518-233343.txt.zip

Tacview-20130519-003633.txt.zip

Edited May 19, 2013 by gavagai

[TheDoctor]

@gavagai

 

Thanks !

Thats's what I was talking about.

The immense advantage of looking at an ACMI-File in tacview is, you can see speeds, angles, g-load, shots and hits...

 

You can even open more than one instance of tacview and compare two flights.

 

I took a first look at your third track and i found my first mistake on the climbing curve strategy: although my speed is no less than yours at minimum, my bank angle is much steeper than yours, what most certainly is the reason why I stall so often, even when the speed seens ok.

[TheDoctor]

I found it and got some more ACMI for my collection

 

You may want to contact 'WildBillKelsoe' - or he may drop in anyway.

He does some Tacview files to study that AI - and he is beating it regularly.

And he is a very good virtual pilot who has a good idea what he is doing.

There must be a thread somewhere about his tacview thing.

 

Don't worry - everybody was heavily challanged by this AI.

You really have to learn the Mustang.

And then it's getting really exciting and fun ;)

Check out the Israeli DCS server - they provide online dogfighting. There is most likely someone around who is willing to help you.

Or go to Virtual Aerobatics and ask some of the VH guys - they really know how to handle the bird.

And if you go online and find a guy with the callsign 'Duc' - you have found me - and I'd be happy to give you a helping hand :)

 

Before going online I would prefer to increase my skills so that I'm not a complete waste of time:D

 

Basically WildBillKelsoe tried the same as me, build up a ACMI collection.

 

Maybe you want to contribute as well :smilewink:

 

If you have trouble with tacview, I gladly help...

[TheDoctor]

...and then I stall...

 

...thats the name of the game.

 

Basically I tried 4 times to climb and curve all not to much...

...allways the same result:

- the AI turns harder than me, in level flight, then climbs to my altitude AND gets closer

- the the AI is about 0.5 mi away, switches Lasersight on and starts wasting me.

- then one of wings stalls. my only choce to regain control is to sink in straight flight

 

and thats it.

 

The AI s a nice programming example for perfect automated flight control, but useless for training :mad:

 

The AI needs improvement in beeing NOT perfect.

ACMI-andThenIStall.zip

[Konrad Friedrich]

Before going online I would prefer to increase my skills so that I'm not a complete waste of time:D

 

It was not intended to go online and dogfight.

I think this would be a quite frustrating experience since human players add something that AI can't: unpredictability.

But you might want to spend some stick time with a buddy that knows what to do (and what not) to fly the Mustang properly.

Flight training - that is what you need ;)

[TheDoctor]

And a last one for today

 

I made my own mission, setting the planes a little more apart and made them faster, all else default.

 

Tried until I got my first manouver right without a wing stall.

After that I sticked to him like chewing gum to a boot, hit him several times, but without AI Lasersight only damaged him some times before my ammo was gone...

 

Still the default quickstart remains as challange.

 

Mission, TRK and ACMI attached...

ThisOneWasBetterButOwnMission.zip

[TheDoctor]

It was not intended to go online and dogfight.

I think this would be a quite frustrating experience since human players add something that AI can't: unpredictability.

But you might want to spend some stick time with a buddy that knows what to do (and what not) to fly the Mustang properly.

Flight training - that is what you need ;)

 

Flight training...

...why not...

 

Ich bin fertig für heute, aber morgen ist ja Pfingstmontag, ich habe noch frei...

Ich habe DCS noch nie online betrieben, aber das sollte keine Hürde sein.

 

Das einfachste wäre, ich versuche einfach nur hinterherzukommen, das sollte schon interessant sein.

 

TeamSpeak habe ich auch, typischerweise benutze ich (nicht lachen) fun-und-witze.de, ist halt ein freier Server.

 

Ich schaue morgen vormittag mal wieder ins Forum

[Konrad Friedrich]

Habe leider keine Möglichkeit für Teamspeak, da ich ein externes Audiointerface benutze.

Ansonsten gerne.

Virtual Aerobatics ist ein netter Server. Waffeneinsatz verboten. Da gibts auch keinen Frust ;)

Würde mich freuen.

Ansonsten: bleib bei englisch... sonst versteht uns keiner ;)

[Konrad Friedrich]

Btw:

Do you have rudder pedals?

Very important: you need permantent access to your elevator trim (at least elevator).

Works best when mapped to an axis of your controller.

Effective trim is the key to fly the Mustang (and any other plane) on razors edge ;)

[gavagai]

I made my own mission, setting the planes a little more apart and made them faster, all else default.

 

Tried until I got my first manouver right without a wing stall.

After that I sticked to him like chewing gum to a boot, hit him several times, but without AI Lasersight only damaged him some times before my ammo was gone...

 

Still the default quickstart remains as challange.

 

Mission, TRK and ACMI attached...

 

Ok, I watched both the good and the bad.

 

In the bad ones, you're just not riding the edge effectively. Your first turn after the merge is a bit flat, too, but I am more concerned by the stalls. That's not the AI being superhuman; that's just you needing more practice.

 

The last track where you win is not good. With that much airspeed, the AI was correct to go vertical, and your nose-low turn was a mistake. Then the AI screwed up badly and overshot right in front of your guns.:doh:

 

Practice stalling the P-51 more. Take it out in a quick mission and do everything you can to find the limits. In order to beat the AI in the quick mission you must be able to complete that first circle without dropping a wing.

[TheDoctor]

@Konrad Friedrich & gavagai

 

@Konrad Friedrich:

Ansonsten: bleib bei englisch... sonst versteht uns keiner

Of course, intended to do so, just a short com speedup for me yesterday.

 

Controller setup:

Stick/Throttle: TH Warthog

Rudder: Saitek

Elevator trim is mapped to throttle trim axis, but without force feedback there is no clue (for me) how use it while curving (while starting, flying course and landing this is no problem, the feedback is visual)

 

@gavagai

Your right, the stalls are the first problem to tackle.

I'm trying to understand why it happens.

Normal stall (low speed/and/or/high AOA) is easy to detect (plane shake) and I know whats going on, but these one wing stalls happen without warning.

 

My current theory is that they are a result of adverse rudder to aileron deflection (unintentional slipping). It's difficult to tell because having looking at the ball and the enemy at the same time is...difficult.

 

I'll do some tests without AI on this.

[Konrad Friedrich]

Controller setup:

Stick/Throttle: TH Warthog

Rudder: Saitek

Elevator trim is mapped to throttle trim axis, but without force feedback there is no clue (for me) how use it while curving (while starting, flying course and landing this is no problem, the feedback is visual)

 

Good setup :)

I think you mean you mapped the elevator trim to the slider next to the right of the right throttle?

Good.

Try this:

Set engine to 2700rpm and 45 inHg (max. continous).

Now pitch the plane only using your elevator trim.

Use the stick for roll only.

That will give you a good feel what the trim can do - and what not.

When chasing another plane you need to trim constantly - the stick is used for finer adjustments.

You'll see how precise your flying will get ;)

[TheDoctor]

Understood, and yes, the slider axis...

 

...but tried something similar in the mean time:

I tuned down the pitch axis to 60% saturation, this has about the same effect.

 

Overcomes the disadvantage of the Warthog stick, the strong spring(I don't want to mod it).

 

Attached my first kill of the AI.

 

In fact if the initial move of the AI does not play out (climbing and curving in) it's pretty screwed. I maintained altitude and max corner speed and it had to follow, then tried the high yoyo trick again...

...then I got behind and because the evasive manouvers are not so smart I stayed behind, used ammo only in small burst and finally got it.

 

For me this discussion is of great help in finding my errors and I'm getting better in the last two days than I got in the last 2 month.

 

Concerning power settings.

I did all of this with max. inHg/max. RPM, what of course is unreal, in the end it will blow the engine.

If only tacview would monitor these settings for the AI, would be interesting.

GotTheSucker.zip

[TheDoctor]

@Konrad Friedrich

I'll have a look at Virtual Aerobatics, have to try how it works.

If possible my nick/callsign will stay the same, or something containing TheDoctor.

 

If I see your callsign 'Duc', I'll contact you in chat.

[Konrad Friedrich]

Hi, Doctor.

That was some nice flying ;)

[TheDoctor]

@Konrad Friedrich

That tour on Virtual Aerobatics was real fun, embarrassing for shure, but fun.

 

But just when I touched down w/o fuel, bam, disconnected.

Then the server was listed no more...

 

Nevermind I'm quite exhausted...

 

But I will definatly join there again, typically in the evening of course.

 

Thanks for the lesson

[TheDoctor]

That TrackIR problem was weird, it works perfect in singleplayer and the client was fine all the time ?!?

It's a great help, so I look get it going.

[Konrad Friedrich]

They restarted the mission right when you touched down ;)

 

I hope you got a feel what the plane can do when trimmed properly.

Next time we'll do some fake-dogfighting.

No one get's hurt but you can learn much ;)

 

And never mind... even Chuck Yeager was a newbie when he started.

cya.

Regards

Duc

[Konrad Friedrich]

That TrackIR problem was weird, it works perfect in singleplayer and the client was fine all the time ?!?

It's a great help, so I look get it going.

 

I never have TiR problems online.

But I mapped the TiR reset to the mic cooliehat switch on my TM Warthog.

So I don't need the keyboard.

Should do the same.

[TheDoctor]

Hm, maybe I just switched it accidently off ?

Could be...

 

I'll test it.

 

Embarassing, that was the problem

 

Ok, done for today, lunch time...

Edited May 20, 2013 by TheDoctor
Added solution