Trimming problems

[bob charles]

Hi,

 

I recently bought a TM HOTAS Warthog and updated from Black Shark to the Black Shark2 module. I remember a couple weeks back, before I edited the Ka-50 lua file, that I could just increase the collective using the + and - number keys on my keyboard and the BS2 would lift off vertically and straight and stay that way. And I could apply the rudder and it would turn in either direction according to my input. It was great! Of course there was no wind in the mission. Now if I do that the BS2 always pitches forward. I use the Trim command (the T key) and the Reset Trim command and I can't get the BS2 to just hover or to lift vertically straight. Even with Auto Hover. I also tried using the Heading Hold and Bank Hold autopilots when I'm flying forward and they're no help either.

 

When I fly the Su-25T I can hit any of the autopilot commands and the aircraft flies according to them. And without the autopilots I can trim it and it stays trimmed according to the forward flight speeds.

 

Anyone who has a HOTAS Warthog knows how much hurt is put on your right hand always having to pull back on the heavy stick.

 

Is there a way to trim or set an autopilot on the BS2 so I don't always have to be pulling back on the stick? I don't have carpal tunnel yet but after 10 or so minutes of flying the BS2 my fingers have been going numb on me! And I look kinda silly flying it with my left hand!

 

Thanks,

 

Bob.

[karambiatos]

could you post a track of what is actually happening?

[Flagrum]

But your T key is mapped correctly (game mode/sim mode)? Sounds as if the trimming function is not engaged at all.

[Lizzard]

before lift off..press right Ctrl + Enter...now a red Controls Indicator shows up. there you can see the Position of your Controls. So..are your Controls centered before Lift off?! Normaly..if you do not touch the Controls and pull the Collective for a lift off the Nose of the Shark will pitch up quite rapidly..so normaly you have to push the Cyclic forward a bit for a vertical Takeoff.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Lizzard

[bob charles]

before lift off..press right Ctrl + Enter...now a red Controls Indicator shows up. there you can see the Position of your Controls. So..are your Controls centered before Lift off?! Normaly..if you do not touch the Controls and pull the Collective for a lift off the Nose of the Shark will pitch up quite rapidly..so normaly you have to push the Cyclic forward a bit for a vertical Takeoff.

 

Yeah Lizzard, I wrote things wrong. Like you say, it pitches up rapidly. And I need to push forward on the stick to keep it down or level.

 

After I write this I'll check out the Ctrl + Enter key commands and see what my stick is doing. Thanks for that info.

 

When I hit the trim command I know it's working because the BS lunges a bit until I can bring it under better control. It's strange how the trim function works. I remember back to BS1 when I could hit the trim command and it would lunge a bit but the BS' attitude would stay mostly that way. Now it just kinda lunges and goes back to where it was pre the trim command. No matter how much I aim the BS down and hit the trim command (T key) it comes back to where it was and I need to constantly keep my stick pushed forward. If I let go of the stick the BS takes off upward and then out of control. It's kinda violent. I must be doing something wrong because like I said, BS1 was working like I think it should.

 

Thanks all for your input. I appreciate it.

 

I'll work on it and let you all know what I find out. Any and all suggestions are still welcome!

 

Bob.

 

ETA - Oh, should I be able to trim it such that I can let go of the stick, at least for awhile, without the BS going out of control?

Edited September 15, 2013 by bob charles
add a question

[Flagrum]

Now it just kinda lunges and goes back to where it was pre the trim command. No matter how much I aim the BS down and hit the trim command (T key) it comes back to where it was and I need to constantly keep my stick pushed forward. If I let go of the stick the BS takes off upward and then out of control. It's kinda violent.

 

Post a .TRK file, please.

[kampf]

Maybe you have the force feedback option enabled in the input axes section? The warthog doesn't have forcefeedback but can be modded.

[Lizzard]

Nevermind..the Trimmer in BS2 needs quite a bit of practice until you get used to it. But when you feel comfortable it makes flying this Baby much easier. Meanwhile check

 

 

and

 

[karambiatos]

Nevermind..the Trimmer in BS2 needs quite a bit of practice until you get used to it. But when you feel comfortable it makes flying this Baby much easier. Meanwhile check

 

The BS1 trim and BS2 trim are completely different, the BS1 trim is much easier control and you can click spam the trim (like russian pilots do) while moving your joystick without fear of loosing control, do that in BS2 and youll be soon be upside down and heading toward the ground.

 

even when your joystick is centered in the BS2 and you press trim itll pitch up or down, and bank left or right on its own, this doesnt happen in the BS1

[bob charles]

The BS1 trim and BS2 trim are completely different, the BS1 trim is much easier control and you can click spam the trim (like russian pilots do) while moving your joystick without fear of loosing control, do that in BS2 and youll be soon be upside down and heading toward the ground.

 

even when your joystick is centered in the BS2 and you press trim itll pitch up or down, and bank left or right on its own, this doesnt happen in the BS1

 

Thanks Everyone,

 

Spam the trim eh? Okay. I do notice the difference between BS1 and BS2. Does the Ka-50 really jump that violently in real life when they press the trim command? I'm surprised not a lot of them have crashed??

 

I think I have it figured out, under control now. The Ctrl + Enter key function is great. It lets ya know just where every axis is at. I see how it keeps the axis "clicked" in place.

 

I thought that after hitting the trim command that the BS should level out and the joystick would go back to center. But that's not the case. It keeps it locked into whatever position you have the stick positioned at, at the time. In the forward position, usually about 1/3 the way forward during cruising speed at around 200 knots. It is knots, isn't it!? The Ctrl + Enter key explains a lot.

 

I'm now able to, though it takes some effort, to keep the BS in level flight with my hands off the stick. It's really fun now.

 

I'm learning. I have a training mission downloaded and installed to teach me the weapon systems. In BS1, though I flew it over 100 or more hours, I never got them down to automatic memory like I do in the Su-25T. It takes a lot of practice and seat time. Pretty soon I'll be ready for prime time, Multiplayer. Watch out, watch your 6!

 

I'm going to watch those video links now Lizzard.

 

Thanks again everyone,

 

Bob.

[Flagrum]

around 200 knots. It is knots, isn't it!?

No, the russians use the metric system and therefore it is 200 kilometers per hour.

 

Regarding trimming difficulties - study this here, this is really essential in my eyes:

 

DCS: Black Shark and the Trimmer - http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_428a.html

DCS: Black Shark – Autopilot - http://www.simhq.com/_air13/air_429a.html

 

edit: this has also tons of knowledge: http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=564854#post564854

Edited September 15, 2013 by Flagrum

[Yurgon]

I remember a couple weeks back, before I edited the Ka-50 lua file, that I could just increase the collective using the + and - number keys on my keyboard and the BS2 would lift off vertically and straight and stay that way.

 

I've been flying Black Shark since 1.0.1c and it has never behaved like that. All the way from BS1 to the current BS2 (well, I haven't touched it since 1.2.4, but I doubt much has changed since then) it always required a bit of cyclic forward because at mission start, it is trimmed for ground handling, not for hover. Are you sure you haven't used the game flight mode previously?

 

I also tried using the Heading Hold and Bank Hold autopilots when I'm flying forward and they're no help either.

 

You should always fly with the stability augmentation channels switched on, except Alt-Hold unless you need that one. Flying the Shark without the stability augmentation system makes it much more difficult to control.

 

Anyone who has a HOTAS Warthog knows how much hurt is put on your right hand always having to pull back on the heavy stick.

 

Yup. A lot less than with an unmodded Cougar. :D

 

Is there a way to trim or set an autopilot on the BS2 so I don't always have to be pulling back on the stick?

 

Well that's exactly what the trim is for, so I'm sure there's something wrong with your controller setup.

 

Maybe you have the force feedback option enabled in the input axes section? The warthog doesn't have forcefeedback but can be modded.

 

Actually, the "Force Feedback" checkbox is located under Options -> Misc. But that is my guess as well. With that checkbox checked, trim doesn't work with non-FFB sticks.

 

Does the Ka-50 really jump that violently in real life when they press the trim command? I'm surprised not a lot of them have crashed??

 

Nope, it doesn't jump at all. When trim is pressed in the real Ka-50, the forces applied to the cyclic stick are released, and that's it (okay, and the button press is sent to the flight control system, but that's not relevant here). The pilot can then go hands-free and let the chopper continue with the current setting of the stick.

 

For instance, trim for 30° bank with a little but of back pressure, and the Shark will fly circles all day long while the pilot can eat breakfast.

 

Since the Warthog doesn't have force feedback, we have to re-center the stick right after trimming. The virtual stick stays in place while the actual stick on the desk is returned to its center position, thus resulting in hands-free flight both in the sim and your simpit until you need to adjust the controls again.

 

I thought that after hitting the trim command that the BS should level out and the joystick would go back to center. But that's not the case. It keeps it locked into whatever position you have the stick positioned at, at the time.

 

Yup, that is absolutely correct. The virtual controls stay in place and the real stick must be re-centered.

 

I'm now able to, though it takes some effort, to keep the BS in level flight with my hands off the stick. It's really fun now.

 

That's the way it's supposed to be. :thumbup:

 

Edit: Oh, I forgot, some more essential reading: BS Auto Pilot description and operation by IvanK.