BF 109 K4

[Altflieger]

Milo not sure that what occured in 1942 has a lot of relevance here. The contention that there were shortages of fuel is undoubtebly true, but to then say all units were short of fuel is a bit of a leap. The Germans restricted use of it for non operational flying late war to keep operational usage relatively normal from what I understand, logistics permitting.

[MiloMorai]

Thanks for the reply Milo. Here's possible evidence of early C3 +MW50 usage :)

Don Bryant P51 Ace being outperformed. Nov 2nd '44.

Listen to what he says from 9.00 onwards, try to ignore the voiceover, lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er1gOYKmOCE

 

Not really as it could be just be a 1.80ata K-4 or G-10.

[Kurfürst]

C3 was not used in large quantities until the Fw190A with the BMW801D engine came into service.

 

You extremely wrong in this. C-3 was in fact the premiere fighter fuel as early as 1941, see strenght report of June 1941. http://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se28641.htm

 

There are no less than 782+ Bf 109s (E/N, T, F-1, F-2 types) listed there running on C-3, having the DB 601N engine. Others may, too, since from the start of 1941 all 109E and F were produced with the DB 601N that used C-3.

 

Point being that C3+mw50 was in use for some time prior to introduction of K4 and G10, and as you point out clearance given in early k4 manuals. So my theory is that they never stopped using it just used it more sparingly i.e. short periods of less than a minute. I think pilots very wary of using it tbh.

 

That's quite feasible too. We need to remember that C-3 just a standard LW fuel type that was preferred to be used for engine operation at higher boost after MW boost was introduced.

 

 

Using C-3 with methanol never stopped, in fact several manuals ie. G-14's MW instruction manual from October 1944 also mentions it that 150 grade C-3 should be used with MW boost; using B-4 is also possible but its more risky since if the MW system fails, B-4 does not have the required anti-detonation qualities to suppress detonation and such case, engine damage will occur.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Kurfürst

[MiloMorai]

Milo not sure that what occured in 1942 has a lot of relevance here. The contention that there were shortages of fuel is undoubtebly true, but to then say all units were short of fuel is a bit of a leap. The Germans restricted use of it for non operational flying late war to keep operational usage relatively normal from what I understand, logistics permitting.

 

It was in rebuttal to these erroneous statement:

 

"the usage of 150 grade C-3 type fuel"

"it was a standard fuel used by the Luftwaffe in large quantities since 1939/40."

[MiloMorai]

RLM data for BAL aircraft

 

Jan 41

E6N -1

E7-19

E7N-13

F 0-1

F 1-30

F 2-27

TOTAL=91

 

Feb 41

E7N-20

F 1-26

F 2-81

T 2-1

TOTAL=128

 

Mar 41

E7N-1

E7N/Z-37

F 1-36

F 2-149

F2Z-59

F 4-0

TOTAL=278

 

Apr 41

E7N/Z-20

F 1-40

F 2-277

F2/F2Z-56

F 4-0

TOTAL=391

 

May 41

F 0-2

F 1-23

F 2-287

F 4-61

TOTAL=373

 

22.01.1941: The Leitender Chef-Ingenieur has considered the fuel situation and suggest to possibly convert the Me 110 to DB601A engines.

 

Beginning in May 1941 F-4s began coming off the production lines. This a/c used the DB601E engine which burned B4 fuel. From then on the standard fuel used by the Bf109 was B4.

[MiloMorai]

 

 

 

" C-3 at the end of the European war the USN found to be less than Grade 100/130 at the lean rating and approximately equal at the rich rating. with 4.35cc lead per gallon"

[JtD]

You extremely wrong in this. C-3 was in fact the premiere fighter fuel as early as 1941, see strenght report of June 1941. http://ww2.dk/oob/statistics/se28641.htm

 

Not all of the Luftwaffe aircraft were fighters, so this statement does in fact not contradict the statement you labelled as "extremely wrong." In fact, German fighters were good for about 30% of the Luftwaffe front line units, and I take it you know how many times you can fill up a 109 for one full fuel load of a 111. B4 was the Luftwaffe standard fuel well into the war.

[Kurfürst]

Not all of the Luftwaffe aircraft were fighters, so this statement does in fact not contradict the statement you labelled as "extremely wrong."

 

You need to read the discussion before commenting on it- the statement that is extremely wrong is that C-3 was only arrived with Fw 190As.

 

In contrast the historical fact is that C-3 was available was already available at the start of the war, if not before. In fact one of driving factors behind the British seeking American import of 100 octane avgas was that while the British had to import it, the Germans were making as much as they wanted from scratch, or rather, coal, through the industrial scale synthetic processes and plants.

 

It is also fundamentally wrong that its large scale introduction was tied with the Fw 190. The fact is the that large scale introduction was in 1940/41 with the DB 601N powered 109s and 110s, well before the Fw 190. Note also that the fact initial Fw 190 models relied on B-4...

 

In fact, German fighters were good for about 30% of the Luftwaffe front line units, and I take it you know how many times you can fill up a 109 for one full fuel load of a 111.

 

That's very much a valid point but then again, even He 111 units in late 1944 were relying on C-3, too.

 

B4 was the Luftwaffe standard fuel well into the war.

 

Alongside C-3. In fact, during the late war period C-3 was estimated to be the majority of synthetic production.

 

It should be kept in mind that since aviation fuel in German was practically all-synthetically produced and C-3 was basically just further produced B-4.

[MiloMorai]

You need to read the discussion before commenting on it- the statement that is extremely wrong is that C-3 was only arrived with Fw 190As.

 

Who said that?

 

In contrast the historical fact is that C-3 was available was already available at the start of the war, if not before. In fact one of driving factors behind the British seeking American import of 100 octane avgas...

Revisionist history. The British were making their own 100 octane fuel. The American 100 octane only supplemented the British stock.

 

 

That's very much a valid point but then again, even He 111 units in late 1944 were relying on C-3, too.

So even less C3 available for 1.98ata K-4s.

 

As you seemed to have ignored this Kurfurst, I will repeat,

 

"the fuel situation made it difficult to keep the DB601N in operation, and at least Me 110 production was ordered to go back to the DB601A predominantly while the DB601N was phased out in favour of the DB601E."

[thinkr]

Its good you guys both win the award for knowing so much about Airpains! Yes I said it Airpains ! Now buy me a beer!

[Isegrim]

Hm thats like a thread about the question * Do Aliens exist? * somehow.

[USARStarkey]

Not really as it could be just be a 1.80ata K-4 or G-10.

 

or just bad flying be bryant. That excerpt from that show doesn't say a thing about boost settings.

[Schnittertm]

Hm thats like a thread about the question * Do Aliens exist? * somehow.

 

Hey, I know a solution to that. I build a timemachine, travel back, interview all the people in question with modern technology (its small enough to be hidden) and get copies of the test results and papers and then report back.

 

Ok, then on to building that time machine.... Now, where did I put my flux capacitor?

[Isegrim]

Hey, I know a solution to that. I build a timemachine, travel back, interview all the people in question with modern technology (its small enough to be hidden) and get copies of the test results and papers and then report back.

 

Ok, then on to building that time machine.... Now, where did I put my flux capacitor?

 

Just do that but dont forget a Uniform matching that period. (Could be dangerous)

[Kurfürst]

It may be possible to borrow one from Prince Harry... :D

[Altflieger]

Time machine here, see Government Reports on LH side.

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/

Includes post war interviews by Allies with German chemists and manufacturers.

Everything you need to know to synthesize avgas from coal :)

Apologies Milo but it says Germans manufacturing B4 1/3 and C3 2/3

by volume. Max output 50 000 tonnes total (both) per month in 1943.

[MiloMorai]

Time machine here, see Government Reports on LH side.

http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/

Includes post war interviews by Allies with German chemists and manufacturers.

Everything you need to know to synthesize avgas from coal :)

Apologies Milo but it says Germans manufacturing B4 1/3 and C3 2/3

by volume. Max output 50 000 tonnes total (both) per month in 1943.

 

Pre-1939, 1940 is not 1943. It was claimed C3 was in wide spread use in these years which is clearly erroneous.

 

This graphic is from the USSBS:

 

 

Here you can add up the B4 and C3 a/c and see which fuel was in greater demand.

http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/LWJul42.html#May43

 

Also from the USSBS

 

Consumption of oil exceeded production from May 1944 on. Accumulated stocks were rapidly used up, and in six months were practically exhausted. The loss of oil production was sharply felt by the armed forces. In August the final run-in-time for aircraft engines was cut from two hours to one-half hour. For lack of fuel, pilot training, previously cut down, was further curtailed. Through the summer, the movement of German Panzer Divisions in the field was hampered more and more seriously as a result of losses in combat and mounting transportation difficulties, together with the fall in fuel production. By December, according to Speer, the fuel shortage had reached catastrophic proportions. When the Germans launched their counter-offensive on December 16, 1944, their reserves of fuel were insufficient to support the operation. They counted on capturing Allied stocks. Failing in this, many panzer units were lost when they ran out of gasoline. In February and March of 1945 the Germans massed 1,200 tanks on the Baranov bridgehead at the Vistula to check the Russians. They were immobilized for lack of gasoline and overrun.

 

As these thread is about the K-4, any mention of fuel pre-mid 1944 is a distraction and irrelevant to the discussion.

 

This 1/2 hour break in time caused numerous engine problems, and failures.

Edited July 19, 2014 by MiloMorai
added comment

[Altflieger]

USSBS? link please.

Did you actually read anything from the link I provided? All WW2 primary sources.

Your sturmvogel link gives a copy of data from Alfred Price's Luftwaffe Data Book, 1997. And that about Luftwaffe disposition in May 1943. Then you say "As these thread is about the K-4, any mention of fuel pre-mid 1944 is a distraction and irrelevant to the discussion." Kurfurst brought up early usage of C3 not me, in response to your " no C3 before fw190" IIRC? He may also have some hard data about that but I haven't been looking.

The actual process of making B4 and C3 was so flexible they could make either at short notice, as it says clearly in the archive. I'm just giving you the information to read.

[MiloMorai]

I said: C3 was not used in large quantities until the Fw190A with the BMW801D engine came into service.

 

which was in response to: it was a standard fuel used by the Luftwaffe in large quantities since 1939/40.

by Kurfurst

 

C3 was in short supply as the Bf110s had DB601A engines installed instead of the DB601N. (read back in the thread)

 

The majority of Luftwaffe a/c used B4 in 1940 (hardly standard and in large quantities). Only for a short time when the BF109F-1,2 was in service was C3 used in greater quantities. The bf109F-4 reverted to B4 fuel.

 

No I didn't read anything in the link because I am not going to spend half a day searching. Be more specific regarding which document(s) under which heading.

 

The sturmvogel link was only FYI, if you were interested.

 

Google search will give you all kinds of links to the USSBS. This link will have you occupied for a long time, http://www.wwiiarchives.net/servlet/action/documents/usa/103/0

[Esac_mirmidon]

What are all of you searching for with this discussion?

 

A Guinnes award like "i know more than you and you know it"?

 

Its reaching a ridiculous point of nosense.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Esac_mirmidon

[gavagai]

What are all of you searching for with this discussion?

 

A Guinnes award like "i know more than you and you know it"?

 

Its reaching a ridiculos point of nosense.

 

It is all about whether there can be a 2000hp Bf 109K-4 in DCS.

 

Some of the late war German fighters had the potential for performance equal to or better than the best allied fighters. However, conditions of late 1944-1945 made it so that this potential was rarely realized, whereas in DCS the late war German fighters will have an equal logistical footing.

 

Then someone cries foul when he gets shot down by a 109K-4 that had the audacity to take off with a full tank of fuel, and he posts here about "luftwhiners" who have somehow biased yo-yo and the DCS team against the Spitfire and P-51. The whole thing begins again and we have another thread with hundreds of posts that only 3 or 4 people bother to read the whole way through.

 

:smartass:

[Esac_mirmidon]

Great post Gavagai ¡¡¡

 

I was thinking this was the reason. So the Guinnes record must change to "My Kurfurst its better than yours"

 

Maybe ED could also model 1945 lame pilots behaviour script to make whiners happier.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Esac_mirmidon

[MiloMorai]

No gavagai, it is about some lufties wanting a 1945 a/c to be able to dominate Allied a/c in 1944 scenarios, an a/c that was only available in the last 6 weeks of the war in Europe in minuscule numbers and played no significant role in the air battles.

 

Please note the title of this forum > Europe 1944

 

The lufties would be screaming blue murder if the P-47M, an a/c that would be dominate from ground level to ceiling, was planed for inclusion.

[SlipBall]

I'm pretty sure that other new aircraft are planned and will be include in the future...until then K4 rocks! :D

[gavagai]

Maybe. Gunnery is more challenging in DCS than in other flight sims in my opinion. It will be very difficult to hit with the low velocity Mk 108. I prefer the 109G series just for the high-velocity MG 151/20.

 

The lufties would be screaming blue murder if the P-47M, an a/c that would be dominate from ground level to ceiling, was planed for inclusion.

 

P-47M is included in Aces High. It is better at low altitude than the D-series P-47s, but it is not a low-altitude monster like the Tempest. When it was introduced it changed the combat dynamic very little.

Edited July 19, 2014 by gavagai