junae Posted January 30, 2006 Posted January 30, 2006 Hi, I'd like to ask you Lomac gurus, a simple yet important (to me) question: In close combat, does the ECM plays a relevant effect against Radar missiles? From what I've learned in the manual and in this forum, the ECM mainly is used to interfere in enemies' radar so that they can't measure my exact location. One thing I learned too, is that when you're at some distance from the enemy, he can "burnthrough" your ECM, and that's where my doubts are. When the burnthrough happens, the ECM is still effective in some way or then it's no more playing any role anymore? Thank you =FN= Six o'Clock Member of Falcões da Noite Squadron Florianopolis :: Brazil
GGTharos Posted January 30, 2006 Posted January 30, 2006 It's no longer effective - in fact, it may even work to your detriment. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
junae Posted January 30, 2006 Author Posted January 30, 2006 Bingo! Thank you GG ;) =FN= Six o'Clock Member of Falcões da Noite Squadron Florianopolis :: Brazil
junae Posted January 30, 2006 Author Posted January 30, 2006 It's no longer effective - in fact, it may even work to your detriment. That is true for ground threats as well? =FN= Six o'Clock Member of Falcões da Noite Squadron Florianopolis :: Brazil
GGTharos Posted January 30, 2006 Posted January 30, 2006 For ground threats it becomes ineffective once they burn through as well, but since most don't have active missiles, that's it ... active missiles have to burn through also, which means you get /much/ less warning as they burn through a lot closer than when they normally pick you up. The home in on your jammer meantime. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Kula66 Posted January 30, 2006 Posted January 30, 2006 GGT, How effective should it be against SA-10 class systems? I've been downed numerous times with the jammer on ... I'm always straying too close :(
junae Posted January 30, 2006 Author Posted January 30, 2006 So it seems there's not much advantage on carrying an ECM pod... Isn't a better idea, to load one or two more weapons than ECM pods? If you have to close the enemy, they won't help you much... =FN= Six o'Clock Member of Falcões da Noite Squadron Florianopolis :: Brazil
Ironhand Posted January 30, 2006 Posted January 30, 2006 So it seems there's not much advantage on carrying an ECM pod... Isn't a better idea, to load one or two more weapons than ECM pods? If you have to close the enemy, they won't help you much... They have their uses but those uses have limitations. Jammers let you get closer to the ground threat before a launch will occur but, if you keep closing that range, a launch WILL most definitely occur. Jammers never completely preclude a launch. They simply reduce the range at which it can happen. Rich YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 11 Pro x64, Asrock Z790 Steel Legend MoBo, Intel i7-13700K, MSI RKT 4070 Super 12GB, Corsair Dominator DDR5 RAM 32GB.
golfsierra2 Posted January 30, 2006 Posted January 30, 2006 They have their uses but those uses have limitations. Jammers let you get closer to the ground threat before a launch will occur but, if you keep closing that range, a launch WILL most definitely occur. Jammers never completely preclude a launch. They simply reduce the range at which it can happen. Rich And don't forget that some of the modern AA missile can do HOJ - for example the AIM120B..... kind regards, Raven.... [sigpic]http://www.crc-mindreader.de/CRT/images/Birds2011.gif[/sigpic]
junae Posted January 30, 2006 Author Posted January 30, 2006 One question comes to my mind: If i turn my ECM on, only AFTER an enemy launch, the missile is likely to loose track? Because when it was launch, there was no interference, so it was launched from a farther distance, but when I turn ECM on, it may puzzle the tracking system, and make it goes ballistic... is it possible? =FN= Six o'Clock Member of Falcões da Noite Squadron Florianopolis :: Brazil
Ironhand Posted January 30, 2006 Posted January 30, 2006 One question comes to my mind: If i turn my ECM on, only AFTER an enemy launch, the missile is likely to loose track? Because when it was launch, there was no interference, so it was launched from a farther distance, but when I turn ECM on, it may puzzle the tracking system, and make it goes ballistic... is it possible? A qualified "yes". You must still be far enough away that the launching platform can't burn through your jamming anyway. Golfsierra2, Haven't forgotten about HOJ but I was referring primarily to SAM playforms. OTOH, I don't fly online and I don't think I've experienced an AI HOJ shot yet either. :) Rich YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCU1...CR6IZ7crfdZxDg _____ Win 11 Pro x64, Asrock Z790 Steel Legend MoBo, Intel i7-13700K, MSI RKT 4070 Super 12GB, Corsair Dominator DDR5 RAM 32GB.
GGTharos Posted January 30, 2006 Posted January 30, 2006 GGT, How effective should it be against SA-10 class systems? I've been downed numerous times with the jammer on ... I'm always straying too close :( It should not be effective at /all/, and even wether you get a launch or lock warning is in debate, from those systems. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
junae Posted January 30, 2006 Author Posted January 30, 2006 A qualified "yes". You must still be far enough away that the launching platform can't burn through your jamming anyway. Yeah! Nice to know that... ;) Hehe, thank you Ironhand!! =FN= Six o'Clock Member of Falcões da Noite Squadron Florianopolis :: Brazil
Guest IguanaKing Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 Yeah...the SA-10 system is pretty friggin' nasty, stay the hell away from it if at all possible. If you see a BB appear on your RWR, that's Big Bird, the SA-10s long range surveillance radar, stay away from that area...because next will come CS-Clam Shell which means Big Bird knows where you are. After that comes Flap Lid...10 on the RWR. You don't want to see 10 on your RWR...its a VERY bad thing.;)
D-Scythe Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 Yeah...the SA-10 system is pretty friggin' nasty, stay the hell away from it if at all possible. If you see a BB appear on your RWR, that's Big Bird, the SA-10s long range surveillance radar, stay away from that area...because next will come CS-Clam Shell which means Big Bird knows where you are. After that comes Flap Lid...10 on the RWR. You don't want to see 10 on your RWR...its a VERY bad thing.;) Frankly, it's not that bad, at least in Lock On. The SA-10 isn't a hard missile to evade, plus they usually start firing at a range where you can easily run it out of energy by doing a little break turn or something. Lock On's SAM AI (or rather lack of AI) is definitely one of its weaker points.
Guest IguanaKing Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 True. None of the SAMs in LOMAC are all that difficult to evade...but the BEST way to evade a SAM is to not have one fired at you in the first place. ;) The Hawk seems to be pretty bad ass though, which pretty much matches everything I have heard about it...fortunately, I usually fly for the side that uses those. If doing my own SEAD isn't mission critical, I don't do it. I also tend to fly my RWR during ingress, and don't use my jammer unless absolutely necessary. If there are enemy aircraft in the area, all unnecessary jamming does is throw blood in the water. Yikes. :D
Guest EVIL-SCOTSMAN Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 Yeah...the SA-10 system is pretty friggin' nasty, stay the hell away from it if at all possible. If you see a BB appear on your RWR, that's Big Bird, the SA-10s long range surveillance radar, stay away from that area...because next will come CS-Clam Shell which means Big Bird knows where you are. After that comes Flap Lid...10 on the RWR. You don't want to see 10 on your RWR...its a VERY bad thing.;) = pwnd by me many times in 25t doing SEAD, trick is, just go low low low to the ground and by the time they even see ya you have already launched 2 missiles.
AlterEgo Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 Just thinking out loud... The SAMs in this sim certainly lack a certain sophistication. There is no real integration and maybe that's a part of the problem. But also most sytems in real life are fielded in groups, not as individuals. You wouldn't be up against a single SA-19 but probably a group of 6 all willing to shoot at you. Makes them a bit tougher to dodge. Another consideration is that, just a SEAD is not DEAD, the goal of ADS is not the destruction of every aircraft in the sky. Wouldn't its goal be airspace denial? And if you want to try flying in that airspace anyway, the goal is to make it very difficult and/or costly for you to complete missions successfully on a sustained basis. The attrition rate should be prohibitive--whatever that might be given equipment and political considerations. Of course, for this to be accomplished there must be a credible threat of destruction. And this probably already exists with the existing modeling. Just put enough of them in the right places. And fly as if you could really die. I know I do things in the sim I'd never consider doing in real life. NOE at 5 meters over broken terrain? Nope. AE
junae Posted January 31, 2006 Author Posted January 31, 2006 What do you think about Lockon's terrain masking implementation? One of these days I was flying over Georgia, deep into the twisty mountains, with high walls of more than 1Km high around me, but if I fly more than 30~40 meters my RWR soon started to growl... and the SAMs were far ahead! In my opinion that wasn't supposed to happen... ;) =FN= Six o'Clock Member of Falcões da Noite Squadron Florianopolis :: Brazil
Weta43 Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 In 1.11? I've spent the last few days playing at flying the Su25 around Hawk & Patriot sites, & being chase by F-16's & the terrain masking seemed to work pretty well - pretty much line of sight. Cheers.
junae Posted January 31, 2006 Author Posted January 31, 2006 Yep, 1.11! ;) I don't know what happened in that mission, but I wasn't supposed to be detected at such an altitude (40~50m) being surrounded by the mountains. I'll try to fly that again and confirm. Thank you :) =FN= Six o'Clock Member of Falcões da Noite Squadron Florianopolis :: Brazil
Guest IguanaKing Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 The terrain masking seems to work ok most of the time. The issue that I seem to have most often is that the SAM reaction time is superhuman. If they are within range, they launch and nail you the instant you crest the last ridge.
Kula66 Posted January 31, 2006 Posted January 31, 2006 = pwnd by me many times in 25t doing SEAD, trick is, just go low low low to the ground and by the time they even see ya you have already launched 2 missiles. Most online setups have them out in force! Online in a 15 at 40k' they seem to be quite nasty! At that alt, you haven't got the manoeuvrability to dodge them, the jammer seems to work at their max range, coupled with a turn away ... and often, since you are near the bad guys home base there are other threats around ... you don't want to dive at start leaving contrails!
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