Frostie Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 This is a really cool mod but just one observation, shouldn't the MiG-29 and Su-27/33 have the same sound output. "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
GGTharos Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 Nope, nor should they have the same symbol probably. The change in antenna size would probably require a retuning of PRFs and optimal frequencies, thus making the systems similar, as well as the emissions, but not the same. In other words, 'HPRF' for a MiG-29, F-18, F-16, Su-27 and F-16 will not be the same PRF. They're all different due to differences in the system, at minimum. For similar reasons, the RF channels used will probably be different. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Frostie Posted January 1, 2014 Author Posted January 1, 2014 Nope, nor should they have the same symbol probably. The change in antenna size would probably require a retuning of PRFs and optimal frequencies, thus making the systems similar, as well as the emissions, but not the same. In other words, 'HPRF' for a MiG-29, F-18, F-16, Su-27 and F-16 will not be the same PRF. They're all different due to differences in the system, at minimum. For similar reasons, the RF channels used will probably be different. Well that is your own opinion but the general consensus be it DCS or Falcon is that the MiG-29 and Su-27 give the same signal. "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
GGTharos Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 My opinion is based on what I know about radar physics (which isn't a huge lot, but probably a bit more than the average person), not on what happens in games. If those radars produce the same signal, one of them is operating optimally, and the other one is probably not so happy. Well that is your own opinion but the general consensus be it DCS or Falcon is that the MiG-29 and Su-27 give the same signal. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Eddie Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 They don't. It isn't a matter of opinion, but a fact of RADAR mechanics. And since when is the consensus/implementation of RWRs in two sims (neither if which model RWR operation especially realistically) something to base inferences of real world operation on?
Frostie Posted January 1, 2014 Author Posted January 1, 2014 My opinion is based on what I know about radar physics (which isn't a huge lot, but probably a bit more than the average person), not on what happens in games. If those radars produce the same signal, one of them is operating optimally, and the other one is probably not so happy. They are similar systems which use the same signal processor, if a successful NCTR was achieved by the operators radar then the difference could be established. The A-10 doesn't have an ability for NCTR. "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
GGTharos Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 What Eddie said. This has nothing to do with NCTR or signal processors. It has everything to do with the fact that optimal detection capability of the radar requires careful PRF matching/tuning to its waveform generator and the antenna type and size. The Su-27 and Su-29 do not share the same size antenna. If you want both radars operating at optimal capability, the signals they produce will be different by necessity. I don't know how else to explain this other than to say that PRF tuning for reach radar, as well as the selection of frequencies it uses, is fairly unique to the type of signal generator and antenna size and type. You simply do not have a choice if you want an optimally operating radar with an MSA - it's not a matter of consensus, guess-work, or fuzzy feelings. This is all about engineering and physics forcing you to do something in a certain way. You know how we always say 'airplanes are one big compromise', and everyone knowingly nods their heads? Same deal with radars. AESA can be a lot more flexible, but that isn't available in the game. They are similar systems which use the same signal processor, if a successful NCTR was achieved by the operators radar then the difference could be established. The A-10 doesn't have an ability for NCTR. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Frostie Posted January 1, 2014 Author Posted January 1, 2014 They don't. It isn't a matter of opinion, but a fact of RADAR mechanics. And since when is the consensus/implementation of RWRs in two sims (neither if which model RWR operation especially realistically) something to base inferences of real world operation on? The point is why are we still displaying Su-27 as 29 nails then? You either go one way or the other, not both, that is just creating confusion. "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
GGTharos Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 Same reason R-27ETs had data-links: False assumptions (but perhaps reasonable for the amount of knowledge available to the devs at the time). It has nothing to do with trying to confuse people, and everything to do with learning as we go along. The point is why are we still displaying Su-27 as 29 nails then? You either go one way or the other, not both, that is just creating confusion. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Frostie Posted January 1, 2014 Author Posted January 1, 2014 (edited) What Eddie said. This has nothing to do with NCTR or signal processors. It has everything to do with the fact that optimal detection capability of the radar requires careful PRF matching/tuning to its waveform generator and the antenna type and size. The Su-27 and Su-29 do not share the same size antenna. If you want both radars operating at optimal capability, the signals they produce will be different by necessity. I don't know how else to explain this other than to say that PRF tuning for reach radar, as well as the selection of frequencies it uses, is fairly unique to the type of signal generator and antenna size and type. You simply do not have a choice if you want an optimally operating radar with an MSA - it's not a matter of consensus, guess-work, or fuzzy feelings. This is all about engineering and physics forcing you to do something in a certain way. You know how we always say 'airplanes are one big compromise', and everyone knowingly nods their heads? Same deal with radars. AESA can be a lot more flexible, but that isn't available in the game. RWR's read RF transmitters and compare it to the library assigned to it for that operation. The 27 and 29 use the same transmitters therefore give off the same signal, RWR's cannot magically determine the size of an antenna they only determine the amount of power, this is then aggregated into a fairly inaccurate range assessment which then displays the symbol relating to the RF transmitter with estimated range/power. EDIT: I think you should use your moderator powers and create a new thread save clogging up this wonderful mod thread. Edited January 1, 2014 by Frostie "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
GGTharos Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 Read what I wrote again. The two radars cannot transmit the same signal if they are tuned to optimal configuration. If they do use the same signal, then one of those radars needs to be seriously downgraded. Which one do you choose to have its virtual brass cut off? The two aircraft may use the same transmitter, but they do not use the same antenna. One of the things you tune PRFs and radar channels is the antenna size. It is necessary to optimize PRFs to obtain the best performance from such radars. It is not possible to operate those two radars with the same signal and obtain good performance. Am I clear? The antenna size determines how you program your emitter (among other things). You cannot escape this, it one of the fundamental physics principles that dictate radar design. It has nothing to do with RWRs guessing antenna size. In any case, you can argue with me all day long, but Eddie works with this stuff. RWR's read RF transmitters and compare it to the library assigned to it for that operation. The 27 and 29 use the same transmitters therefore give off the same signal, RWR's cannot magically determine the size of an antenna they only determine the amount of power, this is then aggregated into a fairly inaccurate range assessment which then displays the symbol relating to the RF transmitter with estimated range/power. Done. EDIT: I think you should use your moderator powers and create a new thread save clogging up this wonderful mod thread. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Eddie Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 The point is why are we still displaying Su-27 as 29 nails then? You either go one way or the other, not both, that is just creating confusion. Why are we still having to guess range? Why do we still not have any indication of elevation? Why do we not have different search, lock, and launch tones based on emitter PRF & Frequency? Why do we still have RWRs that cannot ever determine hostile emitters from friendly ones? Why do we not have the options to control if the RWR displays search RADARs? Why do we still have RWRs that cannot do sensible threat prioritization. and why can we not select RWR control options to influence that prioritization? The list goes on.... Real RWRs do a LOT more than any sim has ever had.
Frostie Posted January 1, 2014 Author Posted January 1, 2014 Not to mention ambiguities and electromagnetic interference. "[51☭] FROSTIE" #55 'Red 5'. Lord Flashheart 51st PVO "Bisons" - 100 KIAP Regiment Fastest MiG pilot in the world - TCR'10 https://100kiap.org
GGTharos Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 That goes for radars too. The point here is, the MiG-29A and Su-27S radars share components, but they're not using the same waveforms. The way things are modeled in sims give people a sense of fairness that does not exist in the real world. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Gary M Posted January 1, 2014 Posted January 1, 2014 The way things are modeled in sims give people a sense of fairness that does not exist in the real world. Truer words have never been spoken :) Cheers! Gary (real-life EWO)
Alfa Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 Nope, nor should they have the same symbol probably. The change in antenna size would probably require a retuning of PRFs and optimal frequencies, thus making the systems similar, as well as the emissions, but not the same. In other words, 'HPRF' for a MiG-29, F-18, F-16, Su-27 and F-16 will not be the same PRF. They're all different due to differences in the system, at minimum. For similar reasons, the RF channels used will probably be different. Yes but considering that the Su-27 is much less proliferated than the MiG-29, I guess its possible that, at one point in time, there was no ELINT data on the Su-27 and that the RWR when looking up recieved "signature" and not finding it in the databank, would pick the closest match(i.e. "29") and display that......plausible?. JJ
Eddie Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 Yes but considering that the Su-27 is much less proliferated than the MiG-29, I guess its possible that, at one point in time, there was no ELINT data on the Su-27 and that the RWR when looking up recieved "signature" and not finding it in the databank, would pick the closest match(i.e. "29") and display that......plausible?. The issue of SU-27/Mig-29 symbology being discussed is solely related to implementation in sims, namely Falcon and DCS, not real aircraft.
GGTharos Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 I don't believe the RWR would pick the closest thing, otherwise you'd have a pretty huge mess. It's either a known with a symbol or an unknown. Caveat: I think the RWR has to do at least a bit of matching of imperfect parameters, but I suspect that this kind of match might be far fetched. Yes but considering that the Su-27 is much less proliferated than the MiG-29, I guess its possible that, at one point in time, there was no ELINT data on the Su-27 and that the RWR when looking up recieved "signature" and not finding it in the databank, would pick the closest match(i.e. "29") and display that......plausible?. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Alfa Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 The issue of SU-27/Mig-29 symbology being discussed is solely related to implementation in sims, namely Falcon and DCS, not real aircraft. Well yes but there must have been some rationale behind it - there is little reason for implementing something like that unless you have reason to believe(falsely or not) that its accurate. JJ
Alfa Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 I don't believe the RWR would pick the closest thing, otherwise you'd have a pretty huge mess. It's either a known with a symbol or an unknown. I guess it depends on how narrow a bracket of known parameters a contact has to fit into in order to be considered a match versus how similar those parameters can be for diffferent radar sets. Caveat: I think the RWR has to do at least a bit of matching of imperfect parameters.... Yes so do I. ..., but I suspect that this kind of match might be far fetched. Well I suspect otherwise :) JJ
GGTharos Posted January 2, 2014 Posted January 2, 2014 (edited) I guess it depends on how narrow a bracket of known parameters a contact has to fit into in order to be considered a match versus how similar those parameters can be for diffferent radar sets. Yep, and having worked with such matching techniques, those things would have to be really close, and I don't believe they are in real life. Well I suspect otherwise :)I don't. PRFs have to change quite a bit (with respect to a matchable pattern) when you reduce the antenna to 1/4 or 1/3 of the area. I'll see if I can find you some free sources for this; it's one of those 'gotta see the math' things, or take my work for it ... I think it's better if you see the math/physics of it. Edit: Here's one thing. http://www.radartutorial.eu/18.explanations/ex36.en.html ... now, you might ask, 'why would they not use the same thing' and I'll tell you there's more math to it that has to do with radar frequency, emitted power, and mainlobe angular size which is driven by the antenna size for the same frequency. Use the same thing as a Su-27 and you screw yourself out of a whole bunch of range on the MiG due to power-on-target issues, use the same thing as a MiG-29 on a Su-27 and you screw yourself out of a whole bunch of range due to ambiguity issues. The PRFs need to be tuned individually, and I suspect the frequencies are chosen to be optimal also, and since mainlobe size is driven by antenna size and frequency you might want to choose an optimal set which won't be the same for two antennae of different sizes. If you still want to say that these two will appear similar, I can take you down that slippery slope an ask you why you can differentiate between an APG-65 and a MiG-29 radar. (The real answer is that there are a lot more techniques to use with radars, so while frequency and PRF choices are driven by some set of rules, pulse chirping etc. are driven by yet other rules, so you get additional ways to differentiate signals ... and all of that will be driven by the physical characteristics of the system, which you already know are not the same for those aircraft :) ) Edited January 2, 2014 by GGTharos [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Vekkinho Posted January 3, 2014 Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) The Su-27 and Su-29 do not share the same size antenna. I must admit that You and F-15C TEWS are right about this one, in fact Su-29 doesn't even have one! Here's the proof: LOL!!! Edited January 3, 2014 by Vekkinho [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
GGTharos Posted January 3, 2014 Posted January 3, 2014 What are you talking about ... it has one right in the prop cone! :D I must admit that You and F-15C TEWS are right about this one, in fact Su-29 doesn't even have one! Here's the proof: LOL!!! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda
Gary M Posted January 3, 2014 Posted January 3, 2014 What are you talking about ... it has one right in the prop cone! :D He kept telling you guys that the 29's dish was smaller... heh Gary
Vekkinho Posted January 3, 2014 Posted January 3, 2014 (edited) (The real answer is that there are a lot more techniques to use with radars, so while frequency and PRF choices are driven by some set of rules, pulse chirping etc. are driven by yet other rules, so you get additional ways to differentiate signals ... and all of that will be driven by the physical characteristics of the system, which you already know are not the same for those aircraft :) ) Phazotron N019 of MiG-29A uses modified (read: upgraded) twist cassegrain antenna of a Saphir-23ML. It's a very logical decision since overall MiG-29 development prolonged and MiG had to "push it out". On the other side, size of Fulcum and Flogger radome are similar so it was a poor man's fortune. On the other side NIIP Tihomirov tried to develop N001 radar so that it would outperform F-15 radars of that time (probably -63) with search range ~200km. They also tried to include the use of R-33 missiles. It was overly ambitious and they failed to achieve this. By that time ('82/'83) MiG-29 already began it's operational service in mainland CCCP so usage of N019 components was chosen. It was decided to use TS100 processor with a larger diameter version of N019 antenna. However, the average transmitted power of 1kW is the same with both N019 and N001. So about differentiating signals, let's say we've got two MiG-29A in the same space/same distance/same aspect. One of them has a fully functional or a brand new radar that emitts 1kW of power and his wingman flicks a radar that had more than 200 hours of usage and is uncapable of transmitting more than 300W... Do you think your average TEWS would indicate a 29 and 21 flying at you? edit: or two 29 icons but the one with functional radar being a bigger threat? Edited January 3, 2014 by Vekkinho [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]
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