ILS Mode Nav

[CrackerJack]

I've recently picked up FC3. When I select ILS Nav Mode I can then cycle through airports and select one to navigate to. I follow the steer point in the HUD but I've noticed a couple of things (1) the ILS bars glideslope and localizer bars do not appear? (2) following the steer point has brought me somewhat lined up with runway but its off. I've been flying the F-15C. I must be missing something in my understanding. The manual is rather vague.

[GRUNT -Shrek-]

I've recently picked up FC3. When I select ILS Nav Mode I can then cycle through airports and select one to navigate to. I follow the steer point in the HUD but I've noticed a couple of things (1) the ILS bars glideslope and localizer bars do not appear? (2) following the steer point has brought me somewhat lined up with runway but its off. I've been flying the F-15C. I must be missing something in my understanding. The manual is rather vague.

 

RTN = return mode; waypoint is IAF (see below), ~10km off runway for long finals. If you reach this waypoint aligned with the runway direction, you should have auto LND = landing mode. ILS will enable about then and guide you down on the glide path. In addition you should receive an ATC call requesting for visual landing (despite of present weather)

 

Keep in mind you have to follow patterns esp. within an airfield control zone.

You might want to take a look at:

- ILS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

- IAF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_approach_fix

- IFR approach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_approach

 

 

No dice? Record a track put it in here, I'll have a look.

[superhornete]

I know this is annoying.In DCS World there are some airports without ILS. The airports with no ILS at all are: Gudauta , Tbilisi-Soganlug , Sukhumi-Babushara , Anapa , Gelendzhik , Maykop , Krasnodar-Pashkovsky , Krasnodar-Center , Novorossiysk ,Krymsk and Mozdok. The airports with ILS are: Kobuleti runway 07 , Vaziani runway 13 and 31 , Kutaisi-Kopitnari runway 07 , Senaki-Kolchi runway 09 , Batumi runway 12 , Tbilisi-Lochini runway 12R and 30L , Mineralnye Vody runway 11 and 29 , Nalchik runway 23 , Beslan runway 09 and Sochi-Adler runway 06.The other runways have not active ILS.

At the airports with no ILS you can't land using the instruments in bad weather.The only way to land there is visual.

I've noticed that F-15C HSI localizer deviation does not provide correct ILS course deviation(if you follow the HSI on final you will miss the runway).The only way to conduct a decent ILS approach in the F-15C is following the ADI needles(localizer and glideslope bars).You may follow the HSI localizer until you have ILS signal(the red marks on ADI disappear).Usually you have ILS signal at 8-9nm on final.

If you fly the F-15C and you have the last DCS World update 1.2.7 please tell me if you still have the AOA scale in HUD after you raise the landing gear in navigation mode.That scale should be in HUD only with gear down as it was in 1.2.6 update and previous versions.I think this is a bug.

[CrackerJack]

I'm going to set up a simple mission in the editor with a WP about 8km off runway and then a Landing WP on the airfield and see if I get the localizer and glideslope.

 

I'll also check for the AOA scale after I raise the landing gear and let you know.

[drack]

I'm sure Ive done some ILS approaches to some of those Airfields superhornete lists as non-ILS?

 

I'm away from my sim pit at the moment so cant check - Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong......

[CrackerJack]

So try a simple training mission flew the to Senaki 09 even though ILS mode was selected no glideslope or localizer bars were displayed in the HUD the AOA bar was. The ADI localizer/glideslope were active though. I would have expected display in HUD?? as shown in manual. Sorry I forgot to check if the AOA scale was still in HUD after switching to NAV mode :-)

[superhornete]

So try a simple training mission flew the to Senaki 09 even though ILS mode was selected no glideslope or localizer bars were displayed in the HUD the AOA bar was. The ADI localizer/glideslope were active though. I would have expected display in HUD?? as shown in manual. Sorry I forgot to check if the AOA scale was still in HUD after switching to NAV mode :-)

 

You won't see the big ILS bars in F-15C FC3 HUD because ED removed them.They were present in FC2 and earlier LOMAC versions.The real F-15C HUD provides only the Integrated Flight Director (pitch and bank steering-the small cross) for ILS approaches. You have to follow this cross with the flight path marker for ILS approaches. But , believe me the best way to conduct ILS approaches with the FC3 F-15C is monitoring the ADI bars.They will lead you to the runway threshold for the right touch down point.The FC3 manual is outdated.It is very similar with FC2 manual as it shouldn't be because there are many differences between FC2 and FC3.

The AOA scale in the HUD should be present only with landing gear down and locked.Even if you are in ILS mode the AOA scale shouldn't appear in the HUD if the gear is up.This is the case for the real F-15C and all DCS FC3 previous updates.

[CrackerJack]

Superhornete thank you for the clarification. I had expected the manual to be up to date :-)

[superhornete]

You're welcome.

What about the HUD AOA scale? Does it appear in your HUD with gear up?

[superhornete]

I'm sure Ive done some ILS approaches to some of those Airfields superhornete lists as non-ILS?

 

I'm away from my sim pit at the moment so cant check - Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong......

 

You are right.You can land using ILS at Sukhumi 30 and Gudauta 33 for example.The bars lead you to the runway.The problem is the red marks on the ADI do not disappear and turn white as it should be.

So , I don't know what's the problem with these airfields but there is a list in DCS World Doc installation folder called DCS_VAD_Charts_FC3 Aerodrome Index that has all DCS airfields and their ILS active runways.

Edited February 1, 2014 by superhornete

[CrackerJack]

Superhornete I can confirm that the AOA scale is displayed in the HUD when the gear is up.

[Maulkin]

Like the manuals, the video tutorials are also outdated.

[Goggles]

The SU-27 flight director logic (also affecting HUD commands) has been broken ever since they redesigned the whole thing in the production of Falcon 2.0.

 

The original Flanker had the flight director working correctly.

 

it seems that the (ILS) Localizer steering commands are related to homing to the runway threshold, rather than correcting the angular difference between the extended runway centreline and the aircraft position.

 

Also the 'Return' mode transitioning to the 'Landing' mode is unrealistic. Too steep an intercept to the 'Return' waypoint leads to overcorrecting in the 'Landing' mode. They had no concept of what a Procedure Turn is.

 

As for altitude commands, the vertical commands are way too sudden. Way too much hysteresis.

 

If they just reduced the sensitivity of the command bars by half, that would be great progress.

[Mowgli]

RTN = return mode; waypoint is IAF (see below), ~10km off runway for long finals. If you reach this waypoint aligned with the runway direction, you should have auto LND = landing mode. ILS will enable about then and guide you down on the glide path. In addition you should receive an ATC call requesting for visual landing (despite of present weather)

 

Keep in mind you have to follow patterns esp. within an airfield control zone.

You might want to take a look at:

- ILS: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system

- IAF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_approach_fix

- IFR approach http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_approach

 

 

No dice? Record a track put it in here, I'll have a look.

 

Thanks for the reference - useful

[Ironhand]

The SU-27 flight director logic (also affecting HUD commands) has been broken ever since they redesigned the whole thing in the production of Falcon 2.0.

 

The original Flanker had the flight director working correctly.

 

it seems that the (ILS) Localizer steering commands are related to homing to the runway threshold, rather than correcting the angular difference between the extended runway centreline and the aircraft position.

 

Also the 'Return' mode transitioning to the 'Landing' mode is unrealistic. Too steep an intercept to the 'Return' waypoint leads to overcorrecting in the 'Landing' mode. They had no concept of what a Procedure Turn is.

 

As for altitude commands, the vertical commands are way too sudden. Way too much hysteresis.

 

If they just reduced the sensitivity of the command bars by half, that would be great progress.

OK. I've read and re-read this an I think I finally understand what you're saying but...

 

I don't see any particular difference between FC 1.x and FC3. Both, assuming the runway is covered by ILS, guide you to the touchdown point in reference to the runway centerline and not to the end of the runway.

 

Air Traffic Control in the sim is minimalist at best. So it's up to the mission creator to place the last mission waypoint far enough away from the IAF (the Return WP) so that you don't have to dive for it. Once you leave your last WP and head for the IAF, the sim leaves your intercept angle of IAF up to you (since there is no ATC to put you into any sort of pattern for landing). The fact that, even if there was sufficient ATC in the sim, you might be approaching the IAF from any direction, the IAF (Return WP) is the only WP that the Flight Director does not insist that you follow the courseline. For that one point only, it always points directly to the IAF. I'm mentioning this because I think this is a difference between then and now.