Osita

Thanks for your comments. I know the main thing we'll be looking to do is to make it easy for everyone, because we have all the same frustrations. If it was already easy to just buy something perfect, we would definitely be buying it instead of taking the much more difficult path. Our aims are as follows: 1. Make it strong and reliable. No crappy weak PS/2 connectors or other nonsense used in other products. We also won't use legacy serial port or parallel port connectors that some manufacturers use for the simple reason that less modern computers support this technology natively. We will probably use micro USB or full USB connectors (both internally and for the connection to the computer), for high strength, high flexibility, and the best compatibility. 2. Make it easy to modify, maintain, or fix. Well, it probably is not going to break in the first place, but if it does then it's good to know you can fix it without fear of doing more damage. 3. Make everything as modular as we can. This is related to point 2, but I am a big fan of modularity because it means we can adapt existing products today to cope with new scenarios in the future. If some new aircraft comes out that uses a similar throttle base to the F-16 but a completely different grip, it will be great for everyone if it's really easy to swap the throttle grip without having to remove anything else. Also are TM making the F/A-18 throttle now? I agree with you the Virpil throttle is nice and compact with a lot of buttons available. It's lacking in the realism department a bit, but if that's not the most important factor then it should suit the casual simmer's needs. As a pit builder myself, having something that at least looks reasonably realistic is important to me, but I fully understand that not everyone has the same goals. We're trying to figure out what the middle ground really is so that the desktop pilots will be happy and the hardcore sim enthusiasts still can create the machine of their dreams. Oh, and we'll make a normal version and a cheaper version that is using more plastic and so on. We envision making the throttle grip on the regular version from metal, and using high quality connectors in it even with gold plating for better conductivity and protection against corrosion! And still to make it as affordable for everyone as it is possible to do!

Thanks for the feedback. We will think about this carefully and see what we can come up with. At the moment I am thinking of something like a slide toggle under the front part that you can push with your thumb to get the zoom. Or we make a modifier button that you can press and it converts one of the existing switches to a zoom switch until you click the modifier off. Wow, there are a lot of possibilities!

Wow... is there no warranty for this stuff?

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but I think some things that can help avoid damage to the HOTAS and the motherboard are: 1. Always use a powered USB hub connected to a surge protector. 2. If you are daisy-chaining USB hubs, always make sure all of the hubs are the same type/brand and are all powered (even though the 2nd hub may "work" without power, it's not the right way). It doesn't matter that much about the same brand thing, but it will eliminate the minor differences. 3. Use a quality brand of USB hub, not something dirt cheap. 4. Use high quality USB connectors, extension cables, etc. If you just use the cheapest ones then you are going to get a problem sooner or later. 5. Keep all your stuff in good condition and check for signs of wear. If something is looking a bit beat up, it might be a good idea to have it checked. 6. Watch the weight! Heavy loads will put physical stress on the connections, so make sure everything is well supported and not actually pulling the USB header off the motherboard due to gravity. 7. Only connect things you need. That desktop fan or coffee warmer is not vital to your mission! Hope some of that will be helpful in avoiding a disaster. I think the biggest one is the surge protection thing. Hardly anyone does it for their peripherals because they don't think it matters, but protecting the computer is useless if you have a whole group of devices connected to it that are not protected. Gravity, too. People don't realize how weak those onboard connections can be.

Yes, thank you so much! It was VERY helpful, because as I stated earlier, our experience is mostly producing hardware for our service business, so this is not a factor that had already been researched. But now I know a lot more about how we can make sure the European authorities are comfortable with the products. Obviously we don't intend to use any harmful materials in the manufacturing process and we don't want people's houses burning down due to bad work. We have very experienced people working with us who genuinely care about making a good product. We offer this from a sincere desire to bring something that we believe people will want and that we were planning to eventually make for our own use anyway. The only difference is that if there's enough demand, we'll change the timing of when to make it. Quality is as important to us as it is to you, because we don't just make something to sell, we make something to use.

Further investigation reveals that the CE logo may only be necessary if the item includes an adaptor to convert voltage (it won't). However our product will be compliant with all the legislative requirements anyway. The only factor of concern is that it's actually illegal to put CE markings on products that don't require certification. So we have to make sure that we do need to certify, which at the moment it looks like we don't. 85371000 CONTROL, JOYSTICK Compliance declaration will be as follows: EN 55022:2010/ AC:2011 Class B : Information technology equipment -Radio disturbance characteristic EN 55024:2010: Information technology equipment -Immunity characteristics ESD IEC 61000-4-2:2008 RS IEC 61000-4-3:2006 +A1:2007 +A2:2010 EFTB IEC 61000-4-4:2012 Surge IEC 61000-4-5:2005 Conducted RF IEC 61000-4-6:2008 Magnetic Field IEC 61000-4-8:2009 Dip & Interrupt IEC 61000-4-11:2004 Further, will comply with all ROHS requirements. We will make an official declaration of conformity when the product exists.

EDIT I checked the requirements and it is possible to self-certify. It says that for simple devices "which have a minimal risk for their use" the manufacturer can just put a CE sticker on it and it's accepted. I would expect our product to be minimal risk because it doesn't do anything and all the internal components such as the USB cables and microprocessors are likely already CE certified. I am very sorry to hear about the unreasonable seizure of your goods, and this seems to have happened just because the manufacturer did not know they can do this self-certification. Customs agents tend to be aggressively pessimistic in my experience. I think in your situation you just got an inspector who was having a bad day, because common sense would tell them that something like a joystick accessory for a computer is not a high risk item.

Thanks for this information. Can you point me to resources where we can find out the requirements for such certification? Our device does not do anything that could cause harm to anything. I notice my external hard drive has CE on it, but my USB mouse does not. Both work fine, and both made in China, though the HD is an Italian brand.

Yes, I understand what you mean. I used the side friction lever on the TM stick to do the same thing. Using this lever for zoom is a bit bouncy sometimes because it's an analog control and the voltage can change slightly giving weird unexpected zoom at inappropriate times! Thanks for your comment and suggestion, and yes we will think about whatever design things people have ideas to improve while not losing too much realism. How about this: We'll make a flip up tab on some part of the grip (or slide panel or whatever) that has hidden zoom in zoom out buttons (or change their function to whatever you want). Maybe a set of hidden buttons. Using digital buttons instead of an axis lever will prevent that bounciness problem, plus it can be very discreet. You only see them when you need to see them and the rest of the time they are hidden!

Noted. Actually we are planning to use sleeved USB cable and connectors because these are both strong and flexible. I have never liked the PS/2 connectors used by TM because they're too delicate (especially on flight stick which can be under considerable torsion in the heat of battle). Most likely this https://ainope.com/collections/micro-usb-cable/products/nylon-braided-micro-usb-cable because I really like the brand.

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Here are a few ways I like to do attack turns: 1. From level flight moving away from the target, descend as much as you can to gain speed then execute a rapid climb while also rolling the nose over in the direction of the turn. You won't normally need to apply much (or any) rudder unless the wind is making it necessary. In fact rudder input can be dangerous at low altitude. This turn as the advantage of bleeding off the most speed while producing a very tight turn and gaining altitude so you can commence an attack run. 2. From level flight do a break roll in the opposite direction of the turn for a second or two (this is assuming you want to track back on the same course alignment for the turn). Now do a hard roll in the direction of the turn that you want with the wings almost or completely vertical. Pull the stick back to get a hard and tight turn. You can do this turn with a bit less airspeed than turn number 1 described above. Use minimal rudder to correct slipping. Be careful that you don't go under 150 knots at any point during the turn. If you do, then drop out of the turn for a beat to allow your speed to pick up again (this does not apply when you're lining up for a landing approach). The reason for this warning is you can get instability very easily on these sharp turns when your airspeed goes under 150 and you're close to the ground. This is a good turn to use when you don't want to gain altitude or lose speed, but still want a tight turn. I like to go around buildings or trees etc, which provide cover during the turn. 3. Immelmann. This is one of the most difficult moves in the A-10 to get right, and you must be going at least 290 knots for it to work (and even then it will probably be a "wobbly immelmann"). The difficult part of this move is that you have to work so hard just to get enough airspeed to execute it, plus you're a bit vulnerable during the time you're ascending and while inverted (the aircraft is weaker on top than on the bottom). Use full AB, make sure your brakes, flaps, and landing gear are all retracted and there are no seagulls sitting on the wings. Now get up to speed and pull the nose up until you tip over in the opposite direction to what you started. The plane will try to tip sideways, but a bit of rudder combined with heavy stick and (optional) a lot of grunting and suppressed swearing, you should be able to keep it steady... plus it doesn't matter too much if you don't get it perfect, as long as you're high up enough to recover airspeed before you lose control. You might lose control for a second or two but you'll get it back if you stay calm (most of the time). You'll be upside down at the end of the half loop, so all you do now is roll over until you're the right way up. The plane is not very stable when inverted, so don't stay inverted for too long. This move gives you the most altitude gain and the most loss of airspeed. It's far more dangerous than the other two turns and normally only used when you want an extremely slow attack run without using brakes or to surprise the enemy who are expecting you to go around instead of just reversing. About the slipping thing: When you're turning, sometimes the tail of the plane will get pulled toward the ground. Using rudder can correct this. Bonus turn: When you don't need a sharp turn but want a smooth and graceful one that is very comfortable, just use full rudder in the direction of the turn while applying gentle roll pressure in the opposite direction, pulling back the stick a bit any time it feels like you're dropping. You'll get a really nice looking turn that takes forever to execute. This is a good one to use when getting ready for landing or while circling around looking for something far away. Don't use it when you want to lose airspeed. The main advantage of this turn is that you don't change altitude at all and it has very little effect on airspeed unless you were too slow to start with. You can convert it to another kind of turn if you find you need to turn more quickly. ps: I know this is easy stuff and probably most people already know, but some people who are just starting out don't know how to do simple moves like this without a lot of choppiness and losing control. Don't get mad just because I described something easy.

I just had what I think is a good idea. If you look at the image of the throttle arm, you can see there are 6 imaginary segments representing the entire length of the arm. So what if we make it so the section indicated by the top 3 segments can collapse inside the bottom 3? This way different lengths are possible without needing to have 2 different arms.

I will make a note to invite you to come and play when our F-14s are ready, but probably by that time you are already promoted to Hptm Jaeger and I won't be able to find you!

Oh, yeah, well just you wait, buddy, just you wait! :megalol: All I have for now is the opinion from my principle engineer that it can be done, but I do respect that opinion because he is a former professor of engineering at Chiang Mai University, and he has over 30 years of experience running his own engineering company (now retired from his own business and came to work for us because our project is just too awesome to not be part of it... imagine getting paid to fly simulators, design simulator parts, and build simulators!).

Strangely enough, we are going to be making these (2 seat version). But the cost is >$35,000 per item (not including taxes and shipping), so I don't exactly expect a line at the front door waiting to collect them. But you will be welcome to come and play with ours once they are ready!

I agree, RS seems to be reputable and has a lot of fans. I think the main issues for many people waiting are that there's no clear agenda, a lot of uncertainty, and concerns about high pricing. If they produce their product it will be excellent, I am sure. But this thread isn't really for those who want to pay what RS charges. It specifically says low cost in the title, so that is the focus.... quality / cost = value. What represents an acceptable "value" varies from person to person.

Hmm.... do you mean that you'd like something where you can disassemble your TM / Siatek / Virpil throttle base and connect the Viper stick? That could be possible, but in this case there are some additional factors. The main one being the different shape and mechanism of the real thing (but for some users that's not a big factor). But it also means we can't include the sensor-based method that we intended. Plus the controller card inside the TM or Virpil or whatever... it is set up to support certain buttons and switches, in some cases with a very precise number. If the number of buttons and switches we need is not supported by their card, then a lot of fiddling about will be required to get it working. We definitely could convert the TM A-10 to F-14 or F-15 in this way though (but then again, so could you with a bit of 3D printing and a lot of stubborn determination). Not sure if there are any licensing restrictions that would make it illegal for us to make the F-14 or F-15 throttle grips for the ThrustMaster base, though. Have to check that. We don't want to annoy anyone.

I can understand that point of view, but those guys have a completely different business model. Even though to you and me the sim community seems really large, for a manufacturer it's tiny. Compare to the market for blenders or microwave ovens and it's obvious. Or to put it another way, there's a much bigger market for toasters than for microwave ovens, so toasters are a lot cheaper even though the tech isn't significantly cheaper. Working out pricing is a tough game. You need to look at volume of sales vs volume of production, then calculate that over the time between production and sales. It's cheaper to manufacture 100 items at a time than 1 item, but if you can only sell 1 per month it will take 100 months to get your targeted profit (which is a really long time). But 100 toasters can sell in one day. Also there's a really big difference between the typical manufacturer's market, which involves a supply chain and wholesalers, and the market for niche products produced in low quantities and sold directly online. So they are going to be pricing based on their estimates of how much they need to make to cover their costs and come out in front (keep in mind it's not just income - cost of materials, there are salaries, rents, interest, water and power bills, internet fees, marketing costs and much more). Their pricing needs to be high and also aggressive. What is interesting is the home hobby guy who charges as much as the big vendors, because that guy doesn't have anywhere near their overheads. But the reason he needs to charge more is because he's got to make enough sales to make it worth his time to bother doing the job. He can't market on the scale that ThrustMaster or Saitek can do. It's more difficult for people to find him and his products. So he is also charging a high price, and I think that is fair, too. But we have a totally different business model to either of these groups. We're not a traditional manufacturer in the sense that we mainly produce products for our own use and not for sale to the public. I changed policy on this because I noticed it's something people want and can't get. What makes this different is firstly we don't rely on sales to make our profits, because we're primarily a service provider. Second, we don't have the same kind of overheads, because our business doesn't solely work in manufacturing, so even though we still have to pay for salaries and water and so on, those costs are covered by the main business activities and don't need to come out of any sales we make. Super cool, right? It's a good situation for everyone because we can make the products you want, earn a little bit of pocket money, and we don't have to charge a King's ransom to make these things.

For sure, the Cougar could rightfully be categorized as a "realistic toy". As we're mostly making this for our own use (as a training provider to the military and airlines) we want to make it as realistic as possible for ourselves, but we'll try to figure out what will work best for consumers who just want something to have fun with. Because of that, I would appreciate your input on what you'd consider perfect, and we can go from there. Another option, which again might affect the cost, is that we could look at making interchangeable arms, so you could unbolt it from the base and detach the grip, and then swap to the right size for your rig. But then where will you put your drinks? No, in seriousness, I totally get what you mean and we'll have to explore the possibilities. I believe that is where we are a bit different from those who mass produce stuff for the consumer market... we don't try to force our own ideas, we are open to anyone's ideas if they will help. And we don't focus on what's not possible, but instead what can be made possible! Thanks for your questions, and more questions or suggestions are certainly welcome.

Answering my own question here since nobody seems to know the answer... I had to probe around for myself to find what was wrong. Hopefully this info will help somebody else that gets stuck with the same problem ever: You need to download and install the Visual C++ redistributables. SMH x 50.... It was really that easy!

I added a new image to the shared set (https://photos.app.goo.gl/Fb6yHoiX2SxKuMWz5) showing one of the challenges in the design, which is that we need to keep the left and right edges free of bulk so it can be easily added to a physical cockpit. One possible idea is to integrate the EPU, ELEC, JET START, and Manual Pitch panels with the throttle into one big unit a-la-ThrustMaster Hog HOTAS, but some concern that this will make the whole thing too big. If you have any thoughts, feel free to share. My feeling is that for pit builders having all those additional panels added is just going to save them a lot of time and frustration, but for ordinary desktop users, where are they going to fit all that hardware?

I will just leave this here in case you did not see it on the front page https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=287122 Also the good news is that you won't have to surrender an entire kingdom if you intend to own one of these.

We would make sure it's nice and clean before it's posted ;)

Well it is less than one day since this poll was started and already we're 20% of the way to our goal of 100 positive responses, so it is looking good! Thanks to everyone who is voting, even the negative responses, because it helps a lot.