105-Rahon

Doesn't really need to be flyable. It may very well be a placeholder. Wags may have this icon on his desktop for quite some time now, as we pretty much know, that he already has, what seems to be Mi-24P external 3D model (see this post for reference). Though that doesn't indicate, it's anything flyable, with cockpit, aerodynamics and other goodies. Even the very icon itself is just copy-paste from Mi-8. So my money is on that, it's something rudimentary. Might make Mi-24P 'selectable' for player-control in Mission Editor, but not truly flyable ;)

Yes, well Russia really might be a bit tricky in that regard. They have very strict anti-espionage policies. For example, if you were to go there and stayed for one day longer, than your visa allows, you might be in some pretty severe consquences. It doesn't really matter, if you were delayed, because you tried to cross Taiga on a motorcycle and got a flat tire in the middle of nowhere - you might have been spying on some military installations (true story). Soviet Union might be gone, but it's "habits" are still kicking in some places all across the former Iron Courtain (and I should know - I'm Polish ;) ) For the Hind - the only reason, I can think of, that Russian authorities would not want to agree on it being done for DCS are radio frequency channels of the Raduga-Sh guidance system. This is radio-command SACLOS system (so in essence a fired 9K114 Shturm missile could be considered an RC drone :D ), and if you know the frequency, you theoretically could jam the missile guidance. With that being said, I find it hard to believe, that a well established company, like ED would go public with an announcement of Mi-24 and went to extend of teasing the gunner cockpit picture back in 2008, meaning that they already put some work into it, without first solving the legal issues out. That would indicate some sloppy work in the legal departament. Even, if that was the case, it's even less believeable, that BelSimTek, with it's close ties to ED would go and make the very same mistake back in 2013/2014. Actually, since they already had their third-party licencing policy in place, ED could have easily licence a contractor operating from outside Russian legal zone. So in general, I'm not buying it ;) EDIT: Very good question, only BST/ED knows the answer to (probably). It's kinda weird, especially that there already is Mi-24V in DCS, with quite a good 3D model and a number of skins done for it. I'm certainly not happy with the Mi-24P being done, and judging from the poll on this topic, I'm not the only one. Still "Hind-F" is what we are going to get and happy about it or not, I've gotta say - it's still better, than nothing ;) Oh and BTW: I'm pretty sure, that once Mi-24P is out, someone is going to make 'flyable Mi-24V mod, based on the P :D

Well ofcourse I'm assuming and what's wrong about it? I mean many things, we take for granted in everyday life are based on an assumption and probability. Like weather forecast for example - we can't predict atmospheric behaviour with 100% accuracy as the atmosphere is far too complex system to be perfectly predictable, so forecasts are either partly based on assumption, that weather patterns will not change for a certain period of time, or on a probability of those conditions changing, based on what was observed in history. For that second option there is another assumption, that whatever occurrence caused those patterns to change in the past, may do so again. Now where's the Hind in all of this? Firstly - Im not "assuming that I've been shown everything there is to see", but I am actually assuming, that whatever little I've been shown is pretty much up to date level of progress - big difference there. Why I'm assuming, it's up to date? Well, why wouldn't it be? What's the point? Can't think of any other, than April fools joke, and we're still pretty far from 1st of April. And what were we actually shown? 3D mesh of a single cockpit. No animations, no UV mapping, nor texturing. Based on my own experience with 3D and 2D sim aircraft work back in the day, when polycounts were lower thus making this stuff easier and quicker, I'd say, this cockpit still has quite a long way to go, before it's finished. This kind of reminds me, when Arneh first shown his Mi-24 cockpit for EECH. That cockpit was already textured and far more finished, than what was given in ED's newsletter and it still took Arneh 9 more months, before it was finally done and released. And yes, you may argue, that this was just a work of one man, in his spare time, so it took more time, than it would for a team of couple people... But then on the other hand - this was EECH, with it's DX7 graphics engine. Arneh had to work with less polycount, smaller textures, no stuff, like normal maps or speculars, plus the cockpit was already far more complete, when it was first shown. Add to that the fact, that a DCS module has to have it's entire functionality programmed from a scratch, while Arneh "only" had to make, texture and animate a single pilot cockpit (he didn't work on the gunners pit), add new landing gear animations and make some tweaks to already existent rudimentary payload profile and flight modell of the aircraft. So based on this I'd argue, that ED is looking at similiar, if not larger ammount of work hours with their Hind. And that's assuming their ex-BST part of the team would focus on Mi-24 exclusively, but we already know, that this particular last assumption is wrong... So now, that we're through with our basic assumptions, let's talk probabilities. Based on what we know from the past, BST tended to work as ED's subcontractor in some cases - namely the F-15s FM overhaul and co-work on the F/A-18. Now, that we know the Falcon is coming it is probable, that ex-BST team will cooperate on this one aswell, leaving them less time work on Mi-24. Even without the F-16, BST had other modules planned - which is exactly the case, why they wouldn't be able to focus exclusively on the Hind. Although we havent yet seen anything about AH-1F, not knowing, if it is even put to any stage of production at all, according to your own logic, we don't know - it may be very well nearing it's cempletion stage (and keep in mind, BST initialy planned to release AH-1G prior to Mi-24). Now for something, we actually do know something about - F-4E Pahntom II: go now to old BST site and look, how much more complete the Phantom cockpit was back in 2017, than Mi-24 in January 2019 (and we're over a year into future now, while F-4 still isn't released). Here's the link: https://belsimtek.com/news/1792/ Now considering the fact, that all BST gave us past the Mi-8 were jets, because apparently there's more money in them, than there is with whirly birds and demand determines supply, what's the probability that F-4 doesn't have greater priority, than both Mi-24 and AH-1 or that works on F-4 won't impact progress on those two at all? Pretty low, I'd say. Ofcourse you may argue, that now, once BST is finally incorporated into ED, the team is larger, giving more resources to divide between all those projects, but that's a double-edged sword. The team may be larger, true, but so may be the scope of projects, we know nothing about. Take F-16 and Mi-24 for example. Both first announced 10 years ago. Is it probable, they allso took the third one out of the backburner? It very well may be. Could it allso impact works on Mi-24? Possibly. Add to that the constant workload on fixing or improving current DCS engine and already released modules, as well, as work on other new and unrevealed projects, like new maps, internal comms system etc. Finally there's probably some kind of publication policy. We are getting some big hits this year - particularly the Tomcat, and pressumably the Falcon. Plus some other major releases, like Farmer and maybe Bronco, since Razbam has been teasing with it so much lately. I don't know, how about the Thunderbolt, but maybe? Anyways thing is not all of these are going to be EDs modules and they all are going to be competing for attention (purchase) from more or less the same audience. It may not be wise to release something - that's so iconic on one hand, but so niche on the other - this year. I mean there have been instances of whole game premiers being pushed from a particular year to the next one for such reasons. So that's why - taking it all into account - i believe the chance of Mi-24 being released this year are pretty slim. ;) I'll deal you one better - take a look at P-47. When was it, that we were first shown it's 3D mesh of the cockpit (that was in somewhat similiar stage of development as Hind's pilot cockpit)? And this bird is not released yet, but still "cooking in the oven", so to speak. ;) Maybe, I mean that's the thing with assumptions - they can always turn-out to be wrong. Like with that weather forcast, that may ruin your summer vacation plans ;) And deep inside I'd LOVE my assumptions on this topic to be wrong, as I'd love to see Hind out ASAP... Today... Now! Besides I'm always happy, whenever something new is being released, wether it is F/A-18 or Cristen Eagle II... F-14 or Yak-52 (I just love that plane), SA342 or the Spitfire. Generally I love to see DCS grow, develop and progress... But on the other hand, as I said before and gonna say it again - I've been literally waiting for Mi-24 for over a decade now. First I've jumped on the hype-train back in 2008, when ED planned to release Ka-50, AH-64A, then the A-10C, and some time later F-16 and Mi-24. Second time was in 2013 or 2014, when BST was confirmed to be working on it, and there was post by PilotMi8, that the Hind would not be released before 2nd half of 2015. Well, it's 2019 now and I'd rather be suprised in a positive way, than the nagative one... again. ;) So again - deep inside I'd wish my assumptions not to be sound, but for all the reasons, I gave you above, I actually think, they are.

Given the status of the pilot cockpit 3D mesh, they shown in one of newsletters from January - assuming, it's current level of progress - plus taking into account, that they're propably fucusing allmost exclusively on the F-16 and eventual fixes for the F/A-18, I'd say next year would be pretty optimistic ETA. According to Wags' statement - Multicrew. Plus it's gonna be able to carry a ton of rockets, ATGMs, gunners (possibly) and troops in one go, shall you ever need it to.

More like Cristen Eagles. Would be a funny MP scenario - one guy having to fly and land CE2 somewhere in T'bilisi, while folks in two Mi-24Ps trying to intercept him.

Yeah, well that's what you get with those low-velocity rockets (I'm guessing they were S-5s). On the other hand, when you're carrying 128 of those, you can be a little lavish with them ;) BTW: Any one noticed the Mi-35M?

Just google "ASP-17V". You'll find plenty images.

I wouldn't get my hopes up for the Fulcrum anytime soon and that's not necessarily the case of it being too modern ;) ED already has MiG-29 and they sell it in both the FC3 package or as a stand-alone add-on. Soon it will allso be sold, as part of MAC. The way, I see it (and I guess, that's pretty much the same way, they see it) is that making full-fidelity DCS: Fulcrum would not be economically viable. Let's face it - most folks just wanna fly and are not as interested in all the "switchology" and systems being unique for a specific aircraft. In addition, once you've learned one aircraft and wan't to switch to the other, you have to learn it all-over again. So there's that, plus I'd argue, it's more difficult to operate the systems in DCS (or any other sim with interactive cockpits for that matter), than it is IRL, where you can just memorise, where the switch is, reach for it and flip it without ever looking at it. So for people like that FC3 is going to be more appealing way to go. One is that you don't have to learn every individual switch and gauge and it's function in the cockpit. Two - once you've learned, how to operate systems in one FC3 aircraft, you've learned them all, plus LOMAC/FC always did a preatty good job at making the US and Russian tech 'feel' different from each other, despite being operated the same way, by the same key combinations. Thirdly, reaching out for ctrl+alt+something doesn't require from you to break your current line of sight, while trying to press something, like autopilot buttons in Ka-50 or Mi-8 actually does. Finally there are folks, to whom the price is the determing factor and that's perfectly understandable - if you're on limited budget, would you rather spend $49,99 for a full-fidelity MiG-29, or $14,99 for the FC3 MiG-29 so-called "A" and MiG-29S? or would you take those $49,99 and buy FC3 with a total of 8 aircraft? Now don't get me wrong - I'd love to see a full-fidelity DCS: MiG-29 Fulcrum. I'd allso love to see all FC3 aircraft being brought to standalone full-fidelity DCS modules. What I'm trying to say here is that ED may consider this as too much effort for not enough profit out of it, because only a fraction of a fraction of their customer base may actually be interested in buying those. Particulary, if they already bought either the FC3, or one of it's aircraft. On the other hand, they shurely wouldn't licence any 3rd party to make it, because again it would take some profit from them and their FC3 products. Still there are some aicraft, that share some tech with Mi-24, like MiG-23 (but that's already covered by Razbam) or Su-17/Su-22.

No problem, mate! :)

Well, the FM is propably going to be written from a scratch. Even with the airframe aside, rotor blades have different dimension (notably the length of the blades) between Mi-24 and Mi-8, so the Hind should have somewhat different reaction to controll imputs. For the avionics systems - DISS-15D map case with position marker is something completely new and I'm really curious, about how will it work in DCS. Other new systems would certainly be Raduga-Sh for guiding Shturm ATGMs and ASP-17V gunsight - Those are allso gonna have to be written from a scratch. There are allso major differences in autopilot console. That's from the top of my head. So in general it won't be a simple copy and paste from the Mi-8. Actually, unlike the D and V models, they may still be in service in some numbers, although the general idea is to replace them with more modern veriants. Even if they were retired, it would have happend fairly recently. More, like in the mid '80s - the Mi-24V was formally introduced in 1976 (along with the D), but the aircraft wasn't ready untill 1980 (specifically it's dedicated ATGM system wasn't ready). Later - around 1985 - Mil Design Bureau modiffied all the V's and some D's with more powerful TV3-117V engines. Then the Mi-24P was developed and then the Mi-24VP (IMHO the coolest Hind), although only 25 of those were ever built. That was Mi-24V (or at least that's, what it was closest to). It had Shturm ATGMs, SPO-15 "Beryoza" RWR (much, like the one from MiG-29 i.eg.) and HUD styled to resemble the ASP-17V gunsight - all tell-tale signs, it's a V and not D ;) In comparison Mi-24D had older systems - Scorpion ATGMs, S-3M "Syrena" RWR and PKV sight (much, like the Mi-8 ). BTW: I'd take Mi-24V over P anytime ;) Some systems are similar. Particularly the gauges and the way, they work - that's essentially copy-paste. That is allso much the case for switches - they are positioned differently, but they switch basically the same stuff on and off. As for me - I'm really curious, how the gonna handle the map case, and will they add mirrors in the pilot cockpit?

AFAIK only the new Mi-24PN and Mi-24VM (AKA Mi-35M) can carry those.

Apparently it's even doable to kill 2 An-2s with AK-47 from an UH-1 IRL (yep - it did happen), but I would still argue it's far easier and gives greater chances of success by using dedicated air-to-air weaponry ;) On a sidenote - here are pics of two new skins, I've made for the Mi-24V:

You're absolutely right! 9M114 Shturm is a SACLOS missile. The gunner has to keep designated target in sight of the Raduga system (sighting device is a monocle periscope on starboard side of the cockpit) constantly for the missile to hit the target. It's sort of RC-equivalent to BGM-71 TOW in that regard. So no automatic target tracking on the Hind, unless we're talking about something, like Mi-35M, and propably allso Mi-24PN. Although it is possible to hit an air target with a SACLOS missile, like during the Iran-Iraq War, it would prove to be extremely difficult in general, and would entirely depend on specific circumstances to succeed. Circumstances, like the target remaining in a hover, moving at very low velocity, or at least having it's flightpath alligned with yours (so you'd need to get on his 6 o'clock) and generally being completely oblivious, that it's being shot at, so it wouldn't try to evade the missile. MCLOS and SACLOS actually helps with that, as they send no signal for RWR and stuff like that to pick-up, but so do the heat-seekers, like an R-60. So generally I'd wager, that you get a better chance of scoring air-to-air kills with a dedicated A2A missile, like the R-60, than with ATGMs, potentialy even as modern, as the 9K121 Vikhr, 9M120 Ataka, or the very potent AGM-114L Longbow Hellfire. Add to that the fact, that helicopter tactics differ quite a lot from those of fixed-wing combat aircraft. In general you don't want to get stuck in wide-open blue skies in a helicopter during a combat situation (assuming, it's a symmetric warfare scenario, as per usuall in DCS, and not the 'Nam- or Afghanistan style anti-guerilla asimmetric one). You want to fly NOE, hide behind a hill, a bulding, tree-line, river beds or watever there is to prevent you from being spotted, locked-on and shot at. From there you want to pop-up, attack your targets with guided weaponry and get behind that cover ASAP. Only after this option is exploited and you still need to destroy something to accomplish your mission, you'd go for a pass with unguided stuff, but it still would be as low, as possible to reduce the time of potential detection. With tactics like that, R-60 might excell, as it may benefit from being fired at close distances and using its agillity to hit the threat, that just popped-up from behind your cover. You may even get a fast-mover, hitting it in the a... Well, you get the idea ;) Actually there's a video on YouTube of a guy doing this to a Su-27 with his Mistral-equipped Gazelle. Back in 1987 Mathias Rust flew from West Germany through Iceland and Finlad to Moscow and landed his Cessna 172 in the Red Square, completelly shaming Soviet air defences. After that "stunt" Soviets gave the Mi-24P an R-60 capabillity. Although I'm not shure, if this was type-wide modiffication, or limited to just a handful of aircraft designated to the air-defence role, one thing remains certain - Mi-24P could carry and fire the R-60.

Now this really IS hilarious! I found Wags' post with the aforementioned Hind cockpit: https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=503375&postcount=343 Notice the date - July 2008. This not only makes it already 10 years old, but allso it's been posted 3 months BEFORE DCS BS1 got even released! To rephrase the catchphrase from Jurassic Park trailer: A helicopter 10 years in the making. Maybe they want to meet the time of development of the real Mi-24? Man! That's some serious approach to realism. :lol: Thanks, mate!

Well, we've been waiting for the Hind for how long now? 10 years? I mean -if I remember correctly - it's been winter 2009, when ED showed us this: Together with F-16 and AH-64A cockpits. And by the way, I think, it's hilarious, how this ol' Mi-24P gunner cockpit looks way more finished, than the pilot's cockpit, the picture of we got recently. I mean, that was, like half a year, after the BlackShark 1 got released, and they had already that much 3d work done (for 3 different aicraft mind you) ;) So verry sad... because it's so very true. :( Well, that depends - they still sorta got competition in the "Fast-mover departament", and they've got some serious competition in the "WWII departament", but what sort of competition do they have in the "Rotaries departament"? * EEAH/EECH 1.16? Still alive, but with that FM - c'mon. * ArmA2? We're talking real flight sims here. ;) * ToH? Died in it's infancy. * Arma3? Well, MP coops with that ToH FM are fun, but it's still far from DCS FM and the DM is second to none - good luck trying to autorotate those birds! And I won't even get into the "choice" BIS with those fantasy whirlys, they put there, but let me just say this - if the Comanche is the closest to R/L thing, you get in your game, then how realistic the game really is? * CombatHelo? Dead before even got finished. * XP 10/11? OK, this one has some serious strong points, and Mins' Mi-2 is really awesome, but still it's a civvie-aircraft sim, so no real competition. I mean, it's the type of sim worth having as a complement and not an alternative to DCS. * FSX/PED? Again: c'mon - it's a civvie again, plus aside from some notable mentions (namely Dodo's 206 and few HTR-modded models), helicopters in there fly no more realisticly, than in ArmA2. * Aaaaand I think that's about it. What I'm trying to say here, is that even though rotorcraft essentially are a niche within a niche, there's no real competition to dilude the potential customer base and divert it from ED. DCS essentialy has the very best helicopter modelling ever, period. Gazelle, UH-1, even the Mi-8 and Ka-50 may not have been wise choices from the marketing point of view, but let them release something popular with 'the crowd', like the Hind, Cobra, Apache or Havoc, and I'm pretty shure, the money will flow. I mean Hind, or even Apache may not generate more income, than the Bug, or the upcoming Falcon, but based on it's popularity, I think, it will generate enough buck, to be considered serious and profitable investment. Would be even more so, if ED and BST had chosen Mi-24V, insted of "P" and AH-1T or "W", instead of "F", but still I magine those birds will sell nicely.

DCS: Seagill Found it in Georgia: Moar birds for DCS! ;) S!

Wow! Bell 47 in DCS, this is awesome. Many thanks, Upuaut! BTW: So now we have both H-13 and UH-1? I'm guessing then, that the next logical steps would be Bell 207 Sioux Scout, 209 and then, finally, AH-1 ;)

Some of my Mi-8 skins: You can download the entire skinpack here: http://www.lockonfiles.com/files/file/2754-mi-8mi-17-polish-skinpack/

Dopiero co dołączyłem do grupy i chciałem się prezywitać. Dzień dobry :)

Got it just when was released, but still d/l'ing 1.2.4 at... 45kbps. Feels like old 56k modem times are back :laugh:

My thoughts exactly.

If I remember correctly, Bellsimtek is actually a Belarussian company, and it's past 17:00hrs in Minsk.

And how about Duxford, UK - the central of all the official DCS announcements? :P

Or may it be, that they know something we don't know yet?

Hey, watch it! I may kill my F5 key today because of this ;)