Phantom12

Seeing as a few people in the discord have been confused or having trouble with FFB I figured Id open a thread so we can compare settings or maybe ask some questions abot how exactly things are implemented in the F-4. Do any of the devs actively fly with an FFB stick and have any settings recommendations? The FM seems very nicely done, and I can already tell where the bellows and bobweight forces are coming into play But I did run into a few things that left me a bit unsure about whether everything was working correctly or not. Some of the below are more observations than questions, but maybe they will get the conversation started. Firstly and most obviously: sitting on the ground the virtual stick seems to lag behind the Joystick considerably in pitch. Even with stick force blending off. If I understood correctly turning this option off is supposed to give 1:1 displacement between the virtual and real sticks. Its much less noticeable in the air, where the stick is generally not moved as far or as quickly. Am I misunderstanding this option or is something not working correctly? Stick forces in the pitch axis also seem to be very light with the blending option turned off. I turned gain up to 250% and the aircraft flew much better, certainly at higher speeds. In the landing pattern forces are still quite light. In general the aircraft seems to require very little stick displacement per G (especially at combat speeds etc). With the higher gain settings I mentioned above the forces build up quickly though, even with very little displacement. The aircraft is much more controllable with a higher gain so you can feel the change in forces. From what Ive seen/read this is correct but I mention it as it gives the airplane a very different feel to things like the tomcat. I need to test it more but I think turning down or removing the AFCS pitch breakout force might make things a little easier as well. I have read somewhere that the stick force transducer introduced some amount of slop in the controls in the real airplane, and I think it might be doing the same in our virtual plane. Or worse since our sticks will move even before the breakout point. Would love to hear what other FFB users have figured out so far.

Didnt get enough chance to test my theories yet but from reading the charts it seems like vs the MiG-21 things are very even at higher speeds (500 KIAS or so). MiG has much better ITR and to some extent STR the slower you get. My basic starting gameplan would be to use sustained horizontal turns and let the aggressive MiG pilot use his wonderful high AoA capability to bleed all his energy, then go up and come back down and kill him. Patient MiG drivers might need to be threatened with the nose briefly before they get slow, but most people in DCS arent patient. I don't think angles tactics are a good choice unless you have a very passive opponent. MiG-19s are probably the tougher enemy in a close fight, at least from a purely performance standpoint. Better to shoot him in the face with a Sparrow or all aspect heater if available, since they only get RQ missiles. Otherwise hope the other guy is a bad stick, bring a wingman, or go home and try again another day. Ill edit this or make another post after Ive flown more against AI or other players. Inital impressions are though that staying fast will be key. F-4 seems to handle very nicely. She zooms very nicely and getting the nose back down over the top seems to be very easy. Using rudder to roll at high AoA works great, even better than the Tomcat IMO.

I thought it had been mentioned already that they hoped to do an APR-36 at some point if time etc permitted. I can't remember where it was mentioned but it was pending the new RWR tech etc and definitely an "I want to do this but can't promise" sort of thing.

Idk which manual OP is referencing but from what I can tell it was added on the production line as of block 56. If I understand correctly thats late 72 production. Retrofit may obviously be a somewhat different timeframe.

The pamphlet I linked below and at least one book I have mentions the -46 coming into service in early 70s. https://www.aef.se/Avionik/Artiklar/Motmedel/Nya_hotbilder/RadarWarnStory.pdf The book mentions 1973 but refers to F-4Cww aircraft. Given their role maybe they got priority. Anyway if the units were available I don't see why they wouldn't have been installed along with Slats etc when the aircraft were upgraded in 74ish timeframe. @LanceCriminal86 If we exclude/don't use weapons integrated in the 80s the the aircraft are generally representative of an overhauled mid 70s jet though correct?

So since the OP asked for MiG killers, and I didn't see many of these in here or in the list on discord I thought Id take a look myself. Hopefully these aren't all reposts.... I focused mostly on F-4Es that survived the war and were upgraded with Leading edge slats etc in 74, aka something similar to what our F-4 will be. A bit late to the party but maybe its still helpful... Anyway in no particular order: 69-7235 Killed a MiG-21 on a chaff bombing mission during Linebacker I. Upgraded with LES in 74. Later converted to F-4G and even later to QF-4G and blown up by an AMRAAM. 68-0493 Killed a MiG-21. LES upgrade in 74. Later sold to ROKAF. 67-0392 killed 2 MiG-19s in separate incidents. Recieved LES in 75. Later served in AFRES, now hangs in a museum in virginia. 69-0291 Killed a MiG-21. Got slats in May 74, currently on display in Osan. 67-0333 killed a MiG-21. LES in 75, and after sitting in AMARC went to a museum in Norway. 67-0210 got a gun kill on a MiG-19 on 2 June 72. LES upgrade in 74. Later sold to Turkey where it was in service till 2004. 68-0338 got 2 MiG-21s in separate shootdowns. Got LES at some point in service with 33rd TFS. Ended up with Missouri ANG and is currently on display at the St Louis International airport. 67-0232 killed a MiG-21 with the gun in Oct 72. The 2nd last F-4E kill during the Vietnam war. LES mods in 74. Stored at AMARC before being sold to Turkey in 87. 67-0301 got the last kill by an F-4E in Vietnam, shortly after 67-0232 above. Recieved slats in 1975. Given to Turkey in 1992 after desert storm. In a stunning display of brilliance they flew it into the water while violating Greek airspace in 1995. 66-313 and 67-0362 were both transferred to Israel in 73 as part of Operation Nickel Grass. 67-0362 was Steve Ritchie's aircraft for a double MiG-21 kill on 8 July 72. 68-0337 didn't kill any MiGs... but its a nice livery made to commemorate the victories during Vietnam.

Ok R2M5 is a perfect example of the point Im trying to make:

Ok I looked back at my Tacview tracks and will correct myself on that, the main AC getting "deleted" seem to mostly be Bandits assigned to the AI off in the distance, which is fine. When I look closer one or two of the bandits just flew into the ground themselves while dodging missiles. I didnt look closely enough at the time and assumed the same had happened to them as with the other ac I had seen earlier. Maybe its just placebo or due to AI difficulty or what weapons they are carrying but generally the Fulcrums and Flankers feel somewhat less dangerous than in ME setups I have used for training. On the whole the balance there isnt so bad, I guess I was mostly referring to R2M2: Anyway thanks for taking a look. Again I think overall the campaigns are very very good, most of this is just nitpicking/philosophising.

Ive just been flying the versions included with the latest OB. Havent had any issues with triggers or huge mission bugs. Maybe an audio playing out of time here or there or playing over one another but nothing game breaking. Dont think that task was optional. It was stated that the ground element would be in trouble if they werent shot down. Like I said maybe this has to do with AI updates. I saw a few videos where people just ripple fired aim 9s at them carelessly and they went down but these days they seem to use flares much more effectively. I guess well have to agree to disagree. I understand its a bit of a matter of perspective. But other than R1M5 : and maybe R1M8 the AI wont shoot first let alone shoot back and tend to get swarmed by AI F-14s, and half the time even before the AI can kill them they get deleted via trigger. I dont think the point about hero scenarios really makes sense either.... by the end of the first real "combat" mission in R1M5 I already had more kills than Tom Cruise ever got in Top Gun. Yes Syria runs fairly poorly, and my system is definitely not fully up to it, but I make do. Im only running an old Rift CV1. R1 I only really had problems when all the Tomahawks and TALDs were in the air... R2 it seems alot is linked to Incirlik, all the buildings and airfield scenery are pretty heavy... nothing to be done about these. But even around incirlik once it loads these things it chugs along fine until someone starts bombing things 200NM away.

So... Reforger II mission 3:

Just to be 100% clear, the vehicle never left Khashuri (the bus stop). For me nothing happened after the call about the HVT getting into the Jeep. As far as I could see there werent any default roadblocks there. Hope thats the same checkpoint mlewis was referring to. I didnt make it further to see any others. Thanks for looking into it. Seemed like a cool mission until then.

Same for me. HVT never leaves the 1st checkpoint. Broken again? Was the fix ever included in a patch or do we need the updated version from here still?

Havent watched the whole vid above yet so forgive me if im misunderstanding your question but.... in my experience attempts to emulate/imitate stick force effects on normal joysticks tend to be awkward at best. In my opinion/experience its better to learn to adapt and fly without the missing feedback than add some sort of complicated and probably unintuitive compensation. In the case of the F-4 the obvious examples that spring to my mind would be the reduction in stick force you get when slowing down from high mach numbers, or when approaching a stall. In either case I think id have better success learning to recognise buffeting at stall onset, or whatever other visual/audio/handling cues I need, than having some sort of system which is constantly moving my virtual stick around even though I never moved my joystick IRL. It will take longer to learn these things on a non FFB stick than on one with but it is doable with a bit of practice. If you need examples its been attempted on the Mirage F1 (where I prefer it off), and there was an old (worse) implementation which was replaced with a newer, slightly less awkward, version on the Me 109 K-4 for dealing with high stick force situations. In any case Im confident whatever options HB gives us will have been carefully considered and tested, and will probably be good enough to satisfy most of us.

Not sure if its a SC issue or the campaign but mission 5 seems to consistently park tomcats either partially in or right in the middle of the landing area on the Stennis (truman).

I would say almost certainly not with the E, but theres always the possibility they make one in the future.