LanceCriminal86

The last A model tomcats produced, the Block 140s, were made in 1986-87 timeframe and the very last 4 of those went to VF-201 and VF-202. They even shipped with bullet fairings and didn't come with TCS installed and stayed that way for a few years it seems. Well before PTID, LANTIRN, etc. Hell they were the first squadrons authorized to drop A2G ordnance apparently and were part of the early tests at Fallon (of course after the VX squadrons did their stuff). Saying Block 135 as "late" doesn't necessarily imply that they were supposed to be As with PTID. Even by the time VF-201 finally went to Hornets in 1998 they did not get LANTIRN. I believe their allotted pods were redirected to VF-103? I think the general statements from Heatblur is that these Tomcats are supposed to represent the later 80s through the mid 90s or so, but prior to the PTID, DFCS, GPS, etc. upgrades that came with the 2000s. Some of those upgrades were only being signed off on, not heavily deployed to fleet jets by '96-'98. I guess my question is, were As and Bs using LANTIRN during the period of time represented with the fishbowl TID? Because I know it has been questioned in the past stating that the BUS upgrades to even make LANTIRN work in a Tomcat also came with the PTID. You mentioned the D model Tomcats that still had fishbowls which I have heard many times, and we also saw plenty of D model LANTIRN usage through the GWOT, but is there anything specifically showing that our A and B Tomcats with LANTIRN and no PTID are not in themselves somewhat of an extreme rarity or "loophole" in order to say it did happen?

I believe the Sajad's Iran skins will be included for when the Iranian cat comes out. But in the meantime you can reuse them from the existing files. Also I swear I'll actually finish VF-201 and VF-202 and make them downloadable, honest! Just after I get every single stencil on the jets 100% photo perfect....

Statics, just set them all up there for screenshots. Then by delaying my player craft a little it spawned me on the stern. That meant I could good around and good with the camera and get a group shot. No, Supercarrier AI and all that jazz is not fixed not has had anything done since release.

And I'm saying that no, it did not work that way for me. I attempted to go straight to datalink and there was no option to select the E2 or E3 in the mission. I used the radio menu, made a call to the E3, and after I was able to go to datalink menu, option 3, then select the E3. I will check what my radio/comms option sets are. I recall unchecking one a while back I think because I wanted to start learning to manage more of the radio stuff but then stopped playing for much of the year.

Okay, it's tied to the radio I guess. Once I used the radio menu and requested picture, suddenly I could go back to Datalink and select the E-2 as my source. I didn't recall having to do that in the past, again maybe it is tied to not using some of the ez radio/comms settings. I misspoke about the whole TACAN thing, was thinking about tankers.

I'll take another look at it tonight. I may have turned off some of the comms aids, maybe that's why? I just remember before all I had to do was add an AWACS, give it a TACAN, make sure the ELPRS was on and it had an AWACS objective type, and it just worked.

The Tomcat template is like Mt. Everest. It's not easy, many have tried and many have turned back. There's also a mountain of dead bodies along the way. But, if you make it and get to the top, you realize nothing's going to top it. There are quirks, you have to reverse-engineer some stuff, scratch make some of your own masks and templates, and even start messing with the layers marked *NO TOUCH* to get what you want. It's maddening sometimes. BUT, to me it's very powerful compared to some of the other jets where everything is crammed into two textures. Even a big texture size on the hornet means that major portions of the jet only get a 512x512 or even 1024x1024 section and resolution. You have to bump the Hornet's main textures up to I think 8K to really start getting some detail like the Tomcat has available, and then you have to basically rework the whole thing to properly upscale it and rebuild all the details. Case in point, Megalax's work on the Hornet and its roughmets. The nice thing is the Tomcat has some great roughmets and normals already. Yes, the diffuse template has an insane amount of layers but I can see their purpose and it produces a very good end result. You just need 32gb+ of RAM and plenty of SSD space to really be able to swiftly work with it, otherwise saving and loading can take a really long time. Or, you can't save anymore because your scratch disk is full after opening 2-3 different template areas. My "working" folder is 23gb, and I have 2 different versions of the template I use. One is now dedicated to the A model skins because I've had to alter some elements that are fundamentally different from the B, namely the fire punch-in and the VStab's leading edge reinforcements which YaeSakura kindly provided along with his own early 70s high-vis template.

Progress on VF-201's final CAG bird continues, despite it needing the not yet released bullet fairing, HGU-55s, and RWR blisters. I believe I may need to make the tails and strakes glossy, based on a couple photos they seem flat but then in another couple photos they seem very glossy. May just offer two different roughmets to solve that issue. The backlot of 201 that need to get updated/fixed/revised with correct A model stencils and some other revisions.

I checked and the ELPRS setting or whatever it was called and everything was active. I need to go and do more testing but I couldn't seem to get jester to connect to the E-2 via datalink.

Man, I expected that to go a little longer. It's semi-fictional, in the sense that it's how one of the airframe guys proposed they paint their color birds around the early 90s. I took his description and worked with it. It's a what-if but in a sense that it was actually proposed, they just ended up sticking with the late hi-vis style or colored stripes on the tail instead.

Did I quote you? It wasn't directed at you, but I think you rather completely missed my point which was that skins that don't win *quite possibly could get adopted anyways* if they meet HB's criteria for accuracy, quality, and historical relevance. You seemed to take my statement and quite literally reverse its meaning. You should direct your angst higher up the chain at the folks talking about where fictional skins belong and doing all this gatekeeping in every thread about available skins, being able to complete air wings and squadrons, and what they think should be done vs what people are doing. Sure, let's get those VX skins in here cause they're pretty (well some of them). Hell I actually planned to do the rest of the missing Bs at one point but A model news got me back on the war path to try and finish VF-201 and VF-202. Neither of which are finished of course, because there are 3 major iterations of VF-201's line jet liveries, 2 of the CO/CAG jets, and there's a final sendoff scheme to do that's nearly impossible. VF-202 was pretty simple, but they had a lot of awards over the years so trying to pick one cohesive timeframe makes it really tough to do, because you need to try and match the CO/CAG jets to the line jets here and there or they stick out (having the CAG/CO jet with names and E/S award with multiple awards vs a line jet with only one of those awards). At this point I just want the dynamic MODEX to happen if only just to make the complaining stop. Then half the community will be happy with their one or two color birds and a generic line jet. And the other half can join in nerding out about whole squadron packs with 1:1 BuNO and MODEXes and all the little unique details we can cram in based on photos scraped after months of digging through Facebook, Instagram, books, Navy publications, Cruise Books, the list goes on. I could personally care less what gets adopted officially, I care more about the model fixes and updates that are coming because they relate to the jets I'm *trying* to paint up here. But I guess that's the difference between folks who spend their time making skins versus those that are waiting for someone else to do it for them. I barely fly the jet anyways because between the bugs and the overall feel of the DCS environment right now, I just get disappointed and go back to skinning until stuff gets fixed/added. The fact that especially the online guys constantly REEEEEEEE about what skins are official (and how they don't fit what they think should be included) is honestly more frustrating than actually trying to paint these jets, and paint them up to the standards of what I expect meets Heatblur's requirements. And if someone has actually taken a crack at painting Tomcat tails in the template, they understand the depth of that comment. There are a ton of complainers on this board with quite frankly zero concept of what it takes in terms of time, research, redoing work, and general perfectionism to provide a skin that actually would make you think Heatblur made it, or even exceed that. To show I'm not just sitting here talking about skins and not actually doing anything, here's a skin that I think I've been working on or towards since the templates dropped for the B. I spent almost 6 months trying to figure out the emergency canopy jettison stencil because this squadron happened to stencil theirs in a way completely different from any other squadron I could find anywhere, including across a handful of well regarded Tomcat books. Even the guys in the squadron that painted it couldn't tell me because it's been over 20 years. I had to make a best guess based off of the factory stencil's wording and where they could have perhaps taken that and adjusted the arrangement before I got something that at least has VF-201's airframe guy's thumbs up as what they probably did. And almost all photos of this jet are either really far away, blurry, from different times, or are a combination of those 3. Almost every stencil you see there either had to be remade or relocated to be correct for an A model, and particularly this jet around 1998 in the squadron's final year of Tomcats. Finally locating a photo and decal set detailed enough to make out the CAG and DCAG names and callsigns took until sometime this summer. I just got myself back into redoing stencils this week and last week, redoing the MODEX, resizing and relocating the awards (which may get redone, again). The intake stencils were completely redone about 7 times until I got here, I may do them one more time as I'm still not 100% happy with the angle. They were not as high up as some B models had them, but also they were different than the Grumman standard A model stencils. The Tails took an exorbitant amount of tries just getting the Texas shape right. Drawing and re-drawing, tracing over photos, redoing it. Then there was the AF tail code, getting those proportions right because hey, they were different over the years since these were all hand stenciled. The stripes took again an exhorbitant amount of tries before I got them mostly happy. I know they are still a wee bit off but if I try to re-do them I might not retain my sanity, even with the helper layer ensamvarg provided. But hey, apparently we just have to have another Jolly Rogers skin with candy canes instead because one guy rreeeaallllyyyy likes it. Since this is a skin competition here's the rest of the back lot of skins I still am completely reworking, and competition or no competition plan to offer up for inclusion because if I'm ever actually done with these, they will be down to the smallest stencils and rivets as best as I possibly can. Oh, and one of those is "fictional" but I challenge y'all to figure out which one. Also of importance, my skins can't be "done" and accurate until we get the RWR antennas modeled, the bullet fairing, and the HGU-55s, plus the removal of the external tank pylons.

It could be argued that test squadrons are less important than fleet squadrons if you want to start controlling what should be in as official skins. But HB are running the competition and they will add whatever they feel would be an appropriate addition to their Tomcats and/or Viggen. There's also a powerful assumption here that skins that don't get added in this competition will never be adopted and the official skins list is closed off forever. So maybe if you aren't contributing or submitting anything, just sit back and let the competition run its course?

In the F-14A, I'm unable to get datalink working in the same way I did with the F-14B in the past. Mission has E-2 set up in the same way as the past. If I try to select Jester > 7] Data Link > 3 the E-2 is not there. On the B all I used to have to do was follow that, select the E-2 or E-3, and I had datalink. Is it a radio option issue? Do I need to have the specific frequency selected before hand? Maybe it's tied to turning easy radio or comms assist on or off? Or is it working as intended and the late As did not have the functionality?

But they were still there till the end on most As. Almost every jet I'm trying to get painted up for the reserve squadrons were Block 135s and 140s and had the fairings through the ends of their careers when they were sent to VF-41, 211, etc. and deployed to combat in OEF and OIF.

You know, that's a really good thought about how to tastefully do some dynamic MODEX skins. Do some corrosion control/paint over where the scheme would have had the carrier or something. Doesn't fix the fact they will still all have the same BuNO but hey, at least that's a neat way to bypass the whole thing.

@KingKenny04 any of these on the list? I bet he'd tweak them to the time-frames if we asked especially when we know what carriers are coming.

I have a book showing it as well and Yae is pretty good at freehanding/tracing decals. If not him there are a couple of dudes that could probably do it as a commission if needed even.

Lebanon 1982/83 VF-14 has a simple tactical scheme and subdued Tophat on the tails. CO/CAG bird I believe only had the same but the tophat's ring was filled in white. Swordsmen may have still had color tails and the late hi-vis scheme, overall gull gray with glare stripe and tan nose, color markings. For this one, going to have to call in a specialist like @_YaeSakura_ to draw the tails. I have them in a book here, it's the Tomcat leaning on a yellow sword with a red pirate bandana on his head. Photos from the cruise book also showed them with the simple color sword on the tail. Some jets even had a grat tactical scheme radome. https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv62-84/352.htm For Lebanon '84, BeDevilers and Sluggers on Saratoga: Having a tougher time finding VF-74 pics from the cruise, but they basically should be lo-vis tac scheme but with color versions of their tails. No idea if either squadron had CO jets in light gull gray but the cruise book photos of the whole air wing seemed to show a pair of Tomcats in light gull gray. Looks like they were 103s: https://www.navysite.de/cruisebooks/cv60-84/554.htm This pic is from '85 but basically this: VF-103 is pretty simple, mostly tactical scheme except maybe two stragglers in well worn LGG. Tails have the arrow in gray, but it looks like some or all had a yellow innerline. Can't find any postable photos but similar to the arrow on the B model skin. Between some of my books, a few sites I frequent, Facebook, and some other resources I think it'll be easy to accomplish. Some of the hi-vis schemes are already done by others, they would just need some adjustment to fit the specific cruises. One would need some custom tailwork for VF-32, but the rest I don't see being a problem at all. There are some usable references for the A-6E and A-7E squadrons but not much of a point starting there quite yet, with no modules to even think about painting. But the Tomcats can be done for sure. The CAG/CO jets aren't even that fancy here so really it should be easy to make a dynamic MODEX compatible blank skin.

Red Rippers and Tomcatters in 1988, plenty of references there as well. Red rippers were same as the decal sheet from my last reply minus the E and S on the tails. Tomcatters you get the nice hi-vis tails with Felix, black noses, and glare stripe. Both photos here 1988 on Forrestal:

I'm already finding what I need, cruise book for 1987 + Bert Kinzey book on Pacific Tomcat squadrons is already telling me what I needed to know. VF-1, 1987 cruise book shows late Hi-Vis with color tails and snazzy CAG jet, same with 1988 photos. VF-2, cruise book has a bunch of Bio's photos in there that match the photos I'm seeing in Kinzey's book for 1988, so there may be some changeups in there or it even looks like they had some jets in tactical scheme, some jets in the overall light gull gray with color markings. Tails looked like the 1987 style with the bounty hunter skull and tricolor band on the tail. Mid 1988 though apparently they switched back to the flashy overall gull gray, fuselage band under the cockpit for the CO/CAG jets, blue rudders with two stars, and yellow fin caps. So either they had Bio grab some pics from the shoebox from later on to do the cruise book or they changed their paint mid cruise or something. Cruise books show she set sail in July '87 and returned in Dec '87 after being in the Persian Gulf supporting Kuwaiti tankers. Now, some of the photos from Kinzey's book are showing from June 1987, the month before the cruise. So it's possible between then and the cruise that at least the CO and CAG jets may have gotten or retained the old style scheme, and after the cruise the other jets had it reapplied. During the cruise VF-2 had the "E" award. Actually, one of the "Straggler" pages of the '87 cruise book shows Bullet 200 on the CAT ready to launch, no color bands on the fuselage under the canopy. The full color scheme may have come back later or they dug old pics out from Bio for their cover page. I probably can't post stuff from the Kinzey book but this decal sheet matches what I'm seeing in the cruise book and his photos for VF-2. I think best bet is to go with the below for VF-2 for that cruise period, with a mix of tactical scheme jets and semi color jets like below: I can get the BuNOs from gonavy.jp and another book I have, from there I can search for photos. Plenty of FB groups where guys like Bio post their photos, bound to be some from that cruise in there.

If I know Heatblur, they probably already intended to have skins that matched their campaigns. Help me help you. Start digging up the references and I'll take a peek at them, or try to get them in front of some other guys who are working Tomcat skins. I'll try to get some stuff in front of the HB skin guy if I can after the holiday and maybe verify if he's had any guidance to have skins that match the campaigns and Forrestal boats or not.

It's not just that, it's the fact that fixes to the visual models WILL require redoing multiple textures. That's what I've tried to say about the small number of skins at release, and why we aren't seeing floods of them coming from HB. There are model corrections apparently in the pipe and they do affect both A AND B model skins. I've detailed this in the skinner's thread with screenshots of what needs to be changed, but one of them I have no idea what the fix will look like. If the model fixes aren't already in their skinner's hands, what's the point of doing work you will certainly have to re-do in the near future? But those points seem to fall differently on the ears of folks that have never done this at even an amateur level like mine. The best I've ever been able to draw is terrible stick figures, I'm not an artist. I've just taken a little time to learn Photoshop's tools like the pen tool and ask a LOT of questions, and make the rest up by sheer ADHD power and not being phased by monotonous workflows of saving, copying, pasting, reloading textures, and continuing that loop until the skin looks how I want it. And then throwing the whole thing in the trash because I'm not happy with it and doing it all over again from scratch after I realize I have to make new stencils because this squadron uses a font or color or size not used by any other squadrons I had for references. To those desiring these skins: Help gather resources. Start trolling places like Gonavy.jp, find the cruises, the BuNO and MODEX of the jets, and then start searching for photos of those jets on those cruises. Start gathering the materials and you might find why this often is no small undertaking. Take special note of stencils, CVW logos, any names and callsigns if you can actually see them, how much corrosion control paint there was, were they using later hi-vis or TPS, etc.

I disagree none with the intent of this effort. Having skins that match the maps and ships we have is a very relevant desire. I disagree with the vehicle by which some want it delivered, and when they want it delivered. Seriously, this kind of stuff should wait to see how dynamic MODEX pans out, because then it becomes a moot point for the most part.

Then maybe restructure your comments. Less "this is a load of crap" and disorganised mess comments and perhaps ask nicely and dudes might actually put their efforts towards a common goal. I've already tagged one or two guys in this thread who actively are either filling out full packs of jets with MODEX and BuNOs all lined up for particular eras and cruises, one of whom is creating a full pack for the whole Millenium cruise on the Stennis. The skins will come. The packs will come. They might even get integrated into the module if they're good enough and fit what HB would like to present or given enough palpable demand. Or, we could just tee everyone off who are doing this for fun and they'll just keep painting whatever the hell they want. Surely none of them have actually spent money purchasing digital books and hours digging around trying to find photos to reference and get the skins right. At this point it sounds like between this thread and the other one about skins needing to match the ships and maps we have, y'all just should wait for the dynamic MODEX thing to get solved, because between now and then what you seek probably isn't going to happen.