kksnowbear

I agree in general, but not all 4090s are the same (at all). Guaranteed if you buy a prebuilt, it's going to come with one of the worst board designs - which matters, and cannot be measured by looking at FPS numbers. Google 4090 bad board design if you don't believe me. Specifically, a lot of prebuilts come with Zotac cards, which are known to be among the worst board designs. AsRock boards are pretty crappy, too. Also, no point in putting a PCIe 4.0 drive on a board you're paying for PCIe 5.0 M2 slots on. Don't scrimp. I wouldn't say money is no object, but I do agree that it's worth looking at the Crucial T700/705 even though they cost more. (I own two and have worked with several others). Also, it is far better to have separate drives for the OS and games. Get a smaller cheaper Gen4 drive for booting, and a separate 2TB Gen 5 drive is enough for DCS. Max efficiency in a switch mode PSU is 50%. I don't think that's changed. That said, I agree a high-quality 1000W unit from a reputable company is a good choice. (PS I believe it's "AGESA")

I am sorry if I misunderstood. When you said this: I understood that to mean you'd already looked at certain models/components (otherwise, where would the price come from?) What I've been trying to explain is that the online vendors like CyberPower, Corsair, Origin, and FalconNW (to name the ones I checked) charge way too much for what you get. Part of the problem (as I see it) is the definition of "prebuilt". If you cannot specify *all* the components used, without being constrained to choosing from a list the vendor provides - it's a prebuilt. Doesn't matter what the vendor calls it; that's just marketing. If it's 'custom' then that means you can specify any component you want - and generally, the online vendors don't do that (because it takes away the way they make money). If you do find one that offers a true 'custom' build, it's going to cost 1000-2000(+) more than the 'prebuilt' machine that supposedly has the same components...how's that make sense? The issue is that these online vendors want to charge the price of a custom build with all premium components, but what they sell is not all premium components. No-name 4090, low-end motherboard, underperforming drives...these things do not warrant a $4000 price tag like what I saw at CyberPower. I believe you can do (much) better with an independent builder - which you didn't rule out in your original post. As a builder myself, I believe it's worth consideration to avoid prebuilts. Several people here have indicated you should avoid prebuilts (as in the definition of 'prebuilt' above). We're saying this because we know what it involves; those who don't understand it...well, they don't understand it. But by all means, you should do whatever you wish.

Yes, and while I might agree with you...please consider the OP has explicitly stated he doesn't wish to do that. (Incidentally, just for the entertainment value: I've also been called in on an 'emergency basis' more than once, by people convinced they could do it themselves. Some were creating their own problems which they never would've gotten past...others were not so lucky and found themselves looking at paying to replace brand new hardware they trashed).

Sorry to nit-pick here - but you didn't actually specify a CPU. This matters because it will dictate motherboard, chipset, etc... May I ask which model (from CyberPower) you're referring to? I assume if you have a price, you've already settled on a model, with a certain CPU, and other components? Which 4090 did you pick? When I looked I could only see three; one was a unit without a brand/model specified. What drive? What PSU? Could share your build list, please? Otherwise there's a lot of potential for 'apples and oranges'. EDIT: Incidentally, I'd be interested to know...is there a reason you might not wish to deal with a local builder? I am fairly confident you'll get a better price on a better machine, with equal or better support as you might get from CyberPower.

The problem(s), from my perspective: a. You haven't specified what you're using now (minor point but could matter, maybe even quite a bit). b. (Unless I missed it) You haven't really specified what you're looking for now. I can appreciate you might not know the finer details, but as it is, that's a fairly huge void. It can make a *lot* of difference in the bottom line. I would strongly recommend you try to at least narrow it down a bit: Specify CPU and GPU at minimum. c. Over the course of this thread, I've now spent time looking at three different online vendors, all the while knowing they're going to be pretty much the same, but wanting to at least give it a shot. I've now done that a fouth time, and zero surprise: The prices are terrible for what you get, +/- as much as several thousand dollars. I've mentioned independent/custom/local builders several times, but I don't recall a response from you about that. Are you not clear on what I mean? I think you can do much better than with the online 'vendors', and possibly save a considerable amount of money, while getting the same/better computer and support. That said - and because you asked - I looked at CyberPower just now. That makes four online "vendors", and they have the same problem as every other online vendor: Their prebuilts are assembled of lower-quality and/or lesser-featured parts. In the example I looked at, I believe it was ~$3000 price from the start (don't know about shipping or taxes where you are). It comes with a 'no name' 4090. You can change it, but they only have a couple of choices, none of which I'd recommend - and all of them add cost. An off-brand power supply, same as the GPU, changing it adds cost. A B650M motherboard that's worth <$150, God only knows what they're charging for it. If you want a better one, of course: Extra charges. 32G RAM and some of the options are garbage ("Major brand?" ...really??)...of course, changing to 64G total = more cost. A 2TB WD Blue PCIe 4.0 drive? Why? (Changing to a decent PCIe Gen5 drive, adds almost another $250, and it's still not the fastest drive you can get, either) They even make you pay an extra $31 to go with W11 Pro instead of Home.... Total now exceeding $3800 (before tax/shipping) and I still can't specify the GPU I'd prefer, haven't changed the motherboard to a better model... Again, this is how they make money. Lower-quality components, build quality that's typically not great, features that aren't great... I could keep going but I'm honestly repeating what I've already said. By the time you 'configure' this machine to a decent set of components, I'm guessing it will exceed $4000, more after tax/shipping. And "support"? Their hours are 830AM-6PM Monday-Friday. No weekends, and since I believe you're on the west coast, no evenings. I know this is what I keep saying but I'm afraid that's the way it is. Do you have access to an independent, custom builder near where you are?

Yes it is. Doesn't mean you can't get one. As I said, if you can find one. I have a few. Agree re: the 5700X3D (but that depends on price, as always)

Sure, local/independent builders do it. I do it. For example, I've made arrangements with guys who want to buy their own parts; I build the machine, they pay a reasonable fee for labor (typically ~$200-300 depending). They also get lifetime support and *free* upgrade labor, trade in on used hardware, etc. Plus, I actively encourage them to be here, helping, learning, and seeing every step in the building process, along with detailed explanations of why it's being done the way it is. The "vendors" don't do any of that. But not if we're talking the "vendors" that keep getting brought up... not if we're talking some place that adds $1000-2000 in cost compared to even worst case retail prices... ... and so far, the "vendors" I've looked at are charging $1000-2000 (or more) beyond what the cost should be. Often with lower quality parts and workmanship. And no better support, necessarily, than a custom builder. That's why I said avoid those places. Avoid prebuilt machines. IBuyPower? Alienware? Yeyian Yumi(???) I'm seriously laughing at how any of these are the "best" PC. The links posted above are the same old prebuilts. They are *not* what you're asking about. (They also generate money for the sites when someone buys whats in the "reviews") They seem to be good for people who just want to throw a ton of money at something, on the presumption that it must be better just because it was way more expensive.

Of course One thing though: When you get/install the memory, I would suggest checking to confirm the machine is set up to read/load XMS profiles, so it actually runs at the rated speed. Also, I'd consider using a utility like MemTest to do a few good test runs, helps make sure everything's in order. Finally - another topic for another time, of course - but the X270/7700K is dated. IMO you'll want to upgrade the platform some time in the next year (for various reasons I won't go into here, but will gladly discuss further if desired). That being the case, and since you are getting a nice 64G set of four modules, I'd like to suggest you consider an AM4 upgrade: X570 motherboard and 5800X3D CPU (if you can find one). It's arguably the fastest platform that will still use your DDR4 kit, and a significant upgrade from the 7700k. (If you can't find a 5800X3D there are other good options). This assumes you *don't* replace the whole thing...and as I said another topic for another time. But it's a good option to reuse the RAM you're getting now.

I'd say not too bad at all for the price. (That's without checking, but in general 64G for ~150 US isn't bad I think). It would probably be cheaper to just add two modules, but again finding a good match can be tricky. The way you've done it, even it costs more, probably worth it to avoid potential trouble/doubt/frustrations, particularly as your experience is limited. Good for you

I didn't actually say that all the systems I fully populated were fitted with all new memory purchased at the same time. In fact, only the newer AM5 systems were. I added two sticks to almost all of the earlier builds, quite successfully. It's not necessary to buy four modules all at once in order to achieve a positive outcome. A good builder is familiar with the differences in the modules, and thus knows how to go about properly matching modules for adding to a system with open slots. As I already said above, I do not recommend any mixing and matching, and that's the same recommendation the memory brands all make. I'm fully aware of the fact that manufacturers can and have changed devices (memory chips) yet still used the same part number etc. This is among the reasons I said earlier that finding matched modules can be tricky, and that modules added should be *exactly* the same as the ones you already have. Exactly the same pretty much means...well, exactly the same. Anything else requires additional consideration. It can work, but it's not something I recommend for a user who isn't experienced. I would concede even matching modules isn't 100% perfect and absolute - but than again, neither is buying four brand new sticks, if you want to get right down to it. Carefully matching all four sticks is the best chance for stability etc. But they don't necessarily need to be purchased/replaced as a set. Also, not all motherboards will always handle different speeds and timings as they should. Not by a mile. Some won't allow it at all. That depends on the board and the BIOS. Many do, but not by far all - so IMO it's not the best advice to tell an inexperienced user that it's OK. Better to advise avoiding the problem to begin with, IMO. For me the deal is this: Either you're experienced, and should therefore know what you're doing, in which case go for it. But then you're not likely to post on a flight sim forum asking how to do it. *Or* You're a 'user' who isn't experienced, in which case I'd advise that you stick with exact matches, and TBH I'd still recommend you solicit the help of someone who can help find exact modules. If this isn't practical, for whatever reason, then yes you might be better off finding a set of 4 identical modules.

Sorry, but I have to disagree While it is correct to say that the motherboard chipsets only have slots/support for a certain number and type of drives that can be used 'by default', it's also not absolute. Many motherboards feature expansion slots that are PCIe 3.0x4 or PCIe 4.0x4. These slots can be used (with a ~$10 adapter card) to install much more recent gen M.2 storage than the board/chipset support 'natively'. I have fitted additional M.2s on boards that had no open M.2 slots...I've also added storage approaching speeds of PCIe 4.0 NVMe on boards that have *zero* M.2 slots on them (and don't even support PCIe 4.0). Of course, this requires a certain amount of knowledge, and depends a lot on a number of factors that aren't covered here. But it can be done, and it's not necessarily constrained by M.2 slots and SATA ports on the board from the factory. To the OP: Running DCS on a Kingston SA400 - while it is technically an SSD - it's honestly among some of the worst SSDs ever made. It sounds as if your machine is fairly new and top-end...so why not use the (much) faster storage options it provides? Depending on your motherboard, you could be running a drive that's 13x or even 25x faster. That being said, other factors like RAM also need to be considered, as mentioned above...so without knowing a lot more, it's impossible to identify the exact cause of the lengthy loading times. Also as already mentioned, I'd suggest looking at how full the disk is, as well as whether it's the only disk in the system (which is not at all optimal). The speed of your drive is almost certainly a factor in the slower loading. How much of the problem is due to that vs other issues depends on a lot of other factors. The reality is that no one can accurately say that a faster drive by itself would completely cure the slow loading - there are other things that need to be considered.

The OP explicitly ruled out doing it himself. It is regretful that some of the comments have ignored this. That said, the balance of the discussion (those comments that *don't* advocate DIY) is not off topic. It offers an alternative to online "vendors", and shows why that alternative is better in every way that is relevant. You don't have to pay thousands more than a machine is worth, and you can still avoid doing it yourself. The OP did not rule out a custom builder.

The OP has very clearly stated that though he's capable, he doesnt want to build his PC: That being the case, the ensuing discussion is about choices for *not* building a computer on your own. Strictly because others have brought it up: As a formally trained and extensively experienced computerized systems professional, I would strenuously advise that the reader does not view the process of building a computer as "remarkably simple". It is not, and it can be very costly and disastrous if not done properly (PM me, I'll tell you some true stories). But again, the OP's topic explicitly excludes the question of DIY building. It would be appropriate to keep the discussion on topic.

Of course, there are important differences in "support" What I find interesting is that - as per your explanation above - 'vendors' are only going to do so much with software they didn't provide. What they sold was a system; basically, a collection of hardware. They don't warranty or guarantee it'll run anything specifically (so-called 'fitness for particular purpose') and they don't really have to guarantee it (especially not in the US, though I believe Europe may be different). I can all-but-assure you their warranty doesn't cover 'fitness for particular purpose'. So, if one of Origin's customers says "Most of the support I need doesn’t involve actual work on the machine.", and that's all Origin really covers to begin with...how much 'support' is Origin actually providing? Like you said, very limited. They're certainly not supporting DCS. The OS or the rest of the platform? Perhaps enough to check drivers etc as you said...but they're not Microsoft (and they'll tell you that, too). So... the obvious question is, how much "support" is that customer actually getting? How useful is that level/amount of support? Is it worth thousands in extra cost?

Following my earlier comments: On the question of using four memory modules vs two: I have built now perhaps a dozen DDR5 machines, and over the years maybe hundreds of DDR4 units (plus hundreds more DDR3 units?). For various reasons, almost every single one of these builds has always had fully populated RAM slots. (4 modules if the board has four slots; most of these have). These machines are client builds, extensively tested before leaving the shop. I have never had problems with stability, or with getting all four modules to run at rated speed (that is, the advertised MT/s listed on the packaging/manufacturer's documentation). IOW, neither stability nor performance has been an issue, whatsoever. It is an 'internet myth" that four modules are always faster than two, and it's also a myth that four modules is somehow inherently unstable - provided they are handled properly as regards configuration, selecting decent modules and a decent board, etc. Of course, using more modules vs fewer will always have certain requirements, as a simple matter of physics and electronics. But these - for me - have not been an issue, and an experienced builder should know how to avoid the problems. As for using modules of different values, there is a reason that *all* the memory companies tell you not to 'mix and match' modules (especially speeds and timings). It's not that it can never work - it can (in some limited and specific instances) especially in the right hands...but then there's also more ways than not that it can go wrong. The problem occurs when someone who isn't experienced tries to do it. They can encounter problems, and won't have any idea what to do. (I have seen my share of machines that had the memory configuration completely wrong, and the owner didn't have a clue). Like the memory vendors, I don't recommend it for that reason. Hence, the responsible, prudent advice is (of course) "Don't do it." Naturally, everyone is free to make their own choice.

Extremely unlikely you're going to be able to tell the difference in 3000 and 3200 unless you're measuring with some sort of utility. In 'real life' usage, you'll never notice. The benefit is going to the larger memory capacity (particularly in DCS) and buying two more 16G modules is possibly cheaper than two 32s. Just make sure the modules you add are *exactly* the same as the ones you have. This is tricky sometimes, since the modules don't always indicate what version they are. "Version" in memory modules can mean different hardware *and/or* software: Memory modules have software loaded on their hardware (tiny chip on the modules); using the Serial Presence Detect ['SPD'] mechanism this info is read by the motherboard. That's why it's important to use the same version. Finding modules that match yours exactly isn't often easy. Can you provide info on your system and the modules specifically? That's not always accurate. A lot of factors enter into it, but as a 'blanket statement', saying four sticks are always slower than two is inaccurate. Reliable sources online say otherwise.

Yes, but these prebuilt machines cost $1000-2000 more than they should, accounting for parts used, and support. Paying thousands more than a machine should cost (regardless of skill level with PCs) is not "best" for anyone. It's not even a good idea. As outlined extensively in this thread, there are *far* less expensive options for buying an entire machine (if that's required), with better components and equal or better support.

Of course, and that's been suggested several times. Some people just can't accept that the way they did it just isn't even close to "best".

Except no one said that. What they said was prebuilt machines are way overpriced for what you get. And options were offered for someone who can't/doesn't want to build their own. So helpful advice is factually being offered. You just don't like the reality that there are way better ideas than throwing $2000 more than it should cost at these overpriced "vendors". But since you want to be pedantic about the topic, the title "PC Manufacturers" pretty much excludes Origin, since they don't actually "manufacture" any of this stuff. As mentioned earlier, they simply rebrand stuff. As above, the current offerings from Origin for a system as specified are way more than any $500 the cost of parts. Closer to $2000. Without proof of what you paid and when, it is impossible to say what you paid over the cost of parts - your "figuring" notwithstanding. Still, it was more than $500, I would bet.

Except that Origin doesn't actually offer 24/7 live tech support, as I've already demonstrated above. Even *if* you got it back when you bought yours, it doesn't appear to be offered now. LOL Not to mention that, for the money someone could save by *not* paying far more than the machine is actually worth, they can buy a lot of support (or even possibly a whole second machine, TBH). And let's not forget: A good builder *can* include support at least as good as anything you're getting from these 'vendors', and *without* charging $2000 more than the machine is worth.

Sometimes people just can't stand it being shown that their opinions are at odds with fact. My comments are intended to help those who genuinely want help, and don't mind acknowledging that they don't know this stuff. I don't think it's good for the sim, the community, or the players when forum advice is inaccurate, especially if it's to the point of potentially damaging someone's machine - which has factually happened. So I speak up. You don't get to be an expert simply by spending exorbitant amounts of money on the latest-generation hardware, but these forums seem to draw a certain number of people who think precisely that.

Both points well taken. While not everyone works in IT, that isn't required. There are still plenty of people who know enough to build a PC. Newegg, Amazon, MicroCenter all sell a ton of components to "non-professional" hobbyists. So regardless of whether someone works in IT, they probably still know of/have access to someone who can help. And save a crap ton of money by doing so. Others (like myself) build and ship machines all over the US, and offer warranty, better support, and other benefits that even the big name vendors don't offer. Often at a (much better) price than what I'm seeing at these "vendors" ($3700... $4500...$6200???). The support that these places offer is great...if you're totally clueless. The "flip-chart troubleshooters" they employ aren't really all that helpful, unless you truly know nothing about a computer.

Not really true. There are often better options, even if someone can't or doesn't want to build a machine themselves. It has zero to do with whether some works in IT.

Without knowing both what you paid and when, there is zero way to corroborate the "premium" you paid...but I can just about guarantee it was way more than any $500. Here's how I know this: While no one can say what they charged you in margin without knowing what you paid and when, anyone can go over to the Origin website and see what they cost right now, today. I've done that, and it's just as bad as the Corsair I mentioned in the other thread. To 'configure' a machine with a 7800X3D/X670E board, a 4090, 64G DDR5, and 2TB of PCIe 5.0 storage... ...was over $4500, before tax. Add taxes, even an average 6%, it will be almost $4800. I can absolutely assure you they're making more than any $500. Even if I count retail prices for the parts, I'm pretty sure it's possible to to build a better machine for $1500 less. But here's the thing: These guys don't pay retail for the parts (of course). So they're actually making more still. Once you consider the difference in component cost at retail vs what these guys pay, it's not hard at all to see they could easily make $2000 (and I'm counting labor to build the thing, too). And you still don't get to specify what 4090 they're selling you. It could be a crappy Zotac that's known to be one of the worst board designs (which I think might be what they sold you the first time)...it could be a 4090FE that, while it's better than the Zotac, there are much better 4090 models out there. This is part of how these outfits make money to increase profit: Cutting costs on lower-quality parts. Also, some of the vendors (Corsair/Origin) use 'in-house' brands for much of the build, and although it is true I don't have any privileged information, I can promise you that the vast majority of what you're paying for those components is pure profit. If you're paying $200 retail for a Corsair branded case, what do you suppose their cost is on that unit? Less than $100 for sure...maybe $50? Businesses like this just don't exist to make any 10% margin In Corsair's Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2023 Financial Results https://ir.corsair.com/news-releases/news-release-details/corsair-gaming-reports-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-2023 it states in part the following: Michael G. Potter , Chief Financial Officer of Corsair, stated, “... our Gaming Components and Systems gross margin increasing 300 basis points to 21.3 percent from 18.3 percent in 2022." On a $4800 system (as I just configured over at Origin), a 21.3% margin represents *over* $1000. Profit. That's after all costs in parts, labor, and yes you can bet they've allowed for the support cost over time, too. Granted, there's a lot combined in that "gaming components and systems" - but again, they're not paying retail prices for parts they re-brand, not by a mile! In fact, I'd venture that one of the biggest reasons they're in the systems business to begin with is because they have their hooks in so many of the components (though not all), they probably make more than most other vendors, since their costs are likely lower for more of the parts. And because they're a huge name, I'm gonna bet they're getting a pretty good deal on parts that they don't own - like motherboards, and GPUs that retail for $1800+ Plus, as I already indicated, the support isn't all you made it out to be: Unless I'm missing something, it's not 24/7. Phone support is available 6AM-8PM PST; that's only 14 hours a day. If you're on the west cost, and have a job with typical 9-5 working hours, that's not a lot of hours outside when you have to be at work - vs evenings/nights when most people actually have time to be on the phone with support. The rest of the day, it appears their 'support' is not live phone support. I can't speak for other builders, but I can assure you I've provided support well outside that kind of hours (and yes, even on holidays, which some of the vendors don't even do at all). I'm sorry but, as a builder, I just don't consider a chatbot comparable to my being personally available to a client. Not even close. So: Origin's cost appear to be just as bad as others. Support: Still not 24/7 live support, and depending on where you live/work, amounts to a few hours a day. That's now three online 'vendors' I've looked at (albeit briefly)...I can't help but feel as if I'm wasting time here, because I'm not seeing anything other than what I expected: Overpriced builds that don't necessarily provide any material or service benefit that warrants the outrageous cost difference. Not everyone needs to build their own PC, true enough. But there are builders who can typically offer much better deals. Now I'm going to quote what I said earlier:

Further on this topic: I briefly checked the Falcon Northwest site to get an idea of their offerings. First of all, their support is 0900-1800 (PST). That's only 9 hours a day; if you happen to live on the west coast and have a 9-5 job, you're pretty much looking at taking time off work to talk to their support. It also indicates they're not available on 6 major holidays a year (Christmas, 4th July, Thanksgiving, Labor Day, Memorial Day, New Years Day). Moreover, I briefly went through the process of configuring one of their mid-tower "Talon" systems with a 7800X3D, a 4090, 64G DDR5 6000 RAM, and a 2TB PCIe 5 NVMe drive. The total cited was $5863, and that's before shipping and taxes. Our tax rate is a fairly average 6%, and still puts you over $6200 not counting shipping. I damn near passed out. Wow. That's over $1000 more expensive than the (already outrageous) Corsair system I discussed in the other thread linked above. As I said previously: If you get even close to the option to configure these prebuilt machines with components that are not low-end junk, the price goes through the roof - and this was with a 4090 FE, arguably not the best 4090 out there (but it's all they offer...see?) It also included only 2TB of fast storage, and an in-house branded 280mm AIO cooler. To be brutally honest, for a price tag exceeding $6000, I'd expect more. And I mean a LOT more. That's just *way* too much money for what you're getting, in my opinion. $6200 plus shipping...yikes.