kksnowbear

Dude stop with the stupid personal attacks, seriously. I've been more familiar with the entire affair longer than you have, and my position on it hasn't changed. That Wikipedia crap you posted has nothing (-zero-) to do with what I just wrote, and it's obviously written by someone who is as clueless as you are - which I already proved earlier. You're not formally trained, and you have zero professional experience. You don't know what you're talking about. You spend a lot of money paying "PC Vendors" to build stuff (and they robbed you, from the sounds of it) ...all of which doesn't make you knowledgeable about anything (except possibly how to spend a lot of money needlessly). Your incorrect assessment and lack of knowledge could have cost someone their PC.

I think it bears mentioning here that *if* this is related to the 12VHPWR cable/connector, then just exactly like with the lawsuit, there is an enormous likelihood that any connection issues are not necessarily the fault of the cable or connector itself. That's what Nvidia has said - and it would also explain how so many (many, many) users don't have any issues at all. I think it's prudent to consider other factors besides the cable on the MSI PSU (which I have a very hard time believing is actually "bad" in a high-quality unit such as that). I can assure you it's entirely possible for this sort of issue to *act* like a problem in the cable, while still not actually *being* a problem in the cable itself. This is not (by far) the first cable that's a pain in the butt to be related to failures, even things like melting connectors - and not always the fault of the cable/connector itself. I've seen plenty of "IT people" plug cables in wrong, and had to fix plenty of the end results, too. Here are some other thoughts I've had: - Have we accounted for the 'approach' of the 12VHPWR cable to the GPU? In other words, any bending, in either axis? There is specific guidance about not having bends within a certain distance (I want to say 10mm) of the connector itself, as well as an overall clearance of something like 5mm between the GPU connector and the case sidewall...note I'm not citing specifics, but there are figures and they do matter. I've seen a lot that are wrong, including here on this forum; bends too tight, too close to the connector, connectors not seated flush and square, cable pressed against case sidewall (causing alignment issues with the GPU connector). All while the "proud owner" of the 4090 insists he knows how to connect a cable, the picture is showing it's wrong as all hell. Along these lines, a simple request: Share a pic of the cable as it's connected to the card, without changing anything (if you haven't already). Ideally you can show when the case side panel is installed as well as when it's off (not sure if you indicated what type case you have, i.e. whether the side panel is transparent). - Also, that MSI PSU has enough 8pin PCIe connectors, and the 4090 TUF comes with a 4x8>12VHPWR adapter cable (I have the same GPU, and mine did). Has this been tried? If the MSI's 12VHPWR cable has an issue, then this test would completely bypass it, and it should work normally. I would caution, however, that in doing the swap, you have to be careful (of course) to not create a different problem...and also, if this swap works, you can't just say it proves the MSI 12VHPWR cable is bad - you *must* swap the MSI native 12VHPWR back, making sure of good connection, no bends, etc, - and *only then* (if it fails again) could you say it proves the MSI cable is related to the problem. As a long-time maintenance professional, one of the things that caught my attention is the first GPU was replaced and the second didn't have issues right away - but it did, in time. To me, this sounds like possibly a connector that's bent and/or under stress (pressed against case side) that only starts to act up over time. That's the way intermittent contacts often behave; they get worse because contamination builds up where the contacts aren't good, which increases resistance, thus increasing the area of the bad contact, and it snowballs from there. I think it's possible to jump to a wrong conclusion, and I believe in the necessity to be thorough in order to *prevent* jumping to a wrong conclusion. I think it's premature to blame the MSI cable, and even if it is a problem, still nothing wrong with 'best practice' and being thorough. It's also entirely possible that, even if the MSI cable/connector has failed, that it wasn't always bad...it could easily have been crimped, bent wrong, etc and thus failed over time. That, to me, is a distinct possibility. And like Nvidia I don't consider that a problem with the cable or the connector. I wouldn't sue my mechanic or Toyota just because my wife rides the brakes in the car, nor should I.

+1 And this is why I actually have several in the shop I'm working with currently. (I guess that about covers the question of it being 'obsolete' lol)

LMAO Whatever. I didn't "lose" on anything. The chart I posted shows that very clearly. Simple: You stated CPU prices don't drop over time. I showed factual data that proves you're wrong. (Then of course, the usual ton of drivel trying to qualify you didn't say what the quotes prove you did say). If anyone "lost", well...lol it ain't me. And again, leave the personal insults out of it. Find one person I've done business with that isn't happy with what they got. Oh, wait...you can't Seriously, leave the personal attacks about me and my business out of it. Let's debate the issue on the merit of the facts. And the facts in this case (see the chart) show you're wrong. Incidentally, below is the same chart with some annotations; let's assume for a moment you're right (just for the sake of discussion). The red box indicates the area of what you call 'lunatic fringe' drop off. The orange box roughly illustrates - as a guess - where it seems you feel the CPU is 'obsolete' (since last year; around 18 months after release). Even if we exclude those two regions entirely, the price can still be seen decreasing in the time between the two. In fact, the blue oval shows where the biggest drop in price was - and it's not during either of the periods you exclude: It dropped by ~$100 a year after release (i.e. no 'lunatic fringe') and roughly a full year before the 14500 was ever released. Way before anyone would call it obsolete (although maybe you can find an authoritative reference showing a 12700k was obsolete in winter 22/23). In fact, during the time since the 14500 was released, it's more or less hit and stayed at $240, while the 12700k has dropped even further, to less than $200 at times (purple box). So, $190 for a CPU that performs better (and doesn't possibly destroy itself)...or 26% more for one that performs less (and who knows lol)? Now I'll quote myself: And, well...it does.

Your entire point is patently absurd, and that's just the way it works. I've shown that repeatedly. You make statements that are inaccurate, then go back and with mountains of doublespeak, try to claim you didn't say what you did. (Fortunately, the quotes resolve that). My customers are perfectly happy, thanks. They always have the opportunity to decide, and I typically include lots of options from current retail, used local, and online stuff. Sometimes they find a better deal elsewhere. Often they come to regret it because what you buy is more than just a piece of hardware. A good part of what I offer is service, and I can assure you it's second to none. Nobody who sells used crap on eBay is going to replace it, for free (including shipping), two years later. Factually, I have done so. I take care of people who work with me, and no price history chart can show the value of that. Keep your personal insults about me and my business to yourself. The chart I just posted proves this is absurd. There's nothing obsolete about a 12700k, and whether it compares to other CPUs is strictly and absolutely a matter of cost. Your references "conveniently" don't consider the cost of the balance of the system. Can't build a system from just a CPU. Your "lower tier CPU of the latest generation" example neglects to mention it could involve a board and perhaps RAM that could drive up the cost. In some cases, the 12700K build will be cheaper overall because that's what I can find at the time. My sources are my business - and remember, the client always has the final say. Incidentally, comparing a 14500 just isn't really going to impress many of my customers lol. The 12700k is $10 more, outperforms the 14500 per your CPUMark link, and isn't part of the family that destroys itself LMAO *Nobody*, not even the least informed twitch gamer out there, wants a 13th or 14th gen CPU right now. Regardless of which model/what power rating, they have earned a bad name - and rightfully so. I won't sell them, because I have zero confidence I can stand behind them. My offers compare the total cost - and always include service that no one so far can seem to match. What makes it work is that I'm the boss, I can set prices however I want, and I don't do it for the money. Good luck finding that anywhere else I rarely (if ever) sell just a CPU. I offer a better deal based on overall value, and again this includes service that is typically impossible to put a price tag on. (Tech support on Christmas Day that actually solved the client's problem in less than 24 hours? Yup, done that...and much much more, and freakin' IBuyPower can't touch this lol).

Funny...that's exactly what you said (you even added the assertion that's just the way it is - which, of course, isn't accurate): Precisely as I said, and contrary to what you originally said. Yup. Got three 12xxx builds in the shop right now, in fact, including one for a DCS user who's actually very excited to get it up and running. They're reasonably capable but inexpensive (and I can sometimes get 'em for less still). Some people prefer inexpensive (particularly in their non-essentials), which is what I also said above: "Best" is entirely subjective. Depends on what I can find. Not everyone has to have (or can afford) the latest, high-end hardware. That's by far the majority of people I work with. And there's still plenty of capable stuff out there. Looking back at the Amazon data, the 12700k was selling at over $450 in late 2021. By the next spring it had dropped $100 to below $350 at times - a decrease of around 25%, nothing to sneeze at. Within roughly a year of release (by Dec '22) it was at $300 (33% off and it's only a year old). Another $50 drop by summer 2023; CPU is only 18 months old but is approaching half what it was new. Late 2023/early 2024; it's only two years old and firmly in the sub-$250 range, and at times less than 200. It's obvious looking at the graph that the price has in fact steadily declined since release. Never mind varying around an average and all that blather, it got cheaper, by a lot, and not because it was "basically obsolete" (yet another absurd assertion). I know plenty of people using CPUs right now less capable than a 12700k. CPU prices drop over time just like other components do. They don't drop at the same rate as things like GPUs do (and some GPUs don't drop as fast as CPUs, either), but that's a different discussion with reasons just as obvious.

Balderdash. Depends on what you buy, when, and from where/whom. One reference, for one CPU (the 5800X3D): https://3cmls.co/US/B09VCJ2SHD Another reference, different CPU (14700k): https://3cmls.co/US/B0CGJ41C9W Third reference, different CPU (7800X3D): https://3cmls.co/US/B0BTZB7F88 All vary over the past months/year. And that's just on Amazon I believe; there would almost certainly be more variance by including other retailers. Plus, I'm not even including used prices, just new. What's "best" is absolutely and totally subjective, and also varies depending on what, where and when. I have dealt with some clients who want the latest thing, and many who prefer to save considerable money by always buying two generations (or more) behind.

I already explained, everything I've said is "on topic" - the point of which is to help the OP (as he requested, and has since indicated his gratitude for) as well others who read this. Sorry if it doesn't agree with your definition of what the topic involves, but everything I've said is directly related. It's not my fault people insist on giving bad advice, nor that they posted it on the thread. I didn't force them to do that, but it's potentially disastrous to not call it what it is. I suppose you think we're all better off letting bad advice fly unchecked. Factually, as I explained, it's potentially harmful to the OP, and to others who will read this at some point. Maybe you feel that the two owners of systems I had to repair already were better off with bad advice from internet forums concerning modular PSU cables. I can assure you they don't think so, and certainly not once they paid to have boards replaced that were destroyed by the wrong cables, because someone on the internet gave them bad advice. Fortunately, I've been able to prevent at least two others from making the exact same mistake, by correcting bad information. "Not helpful in any way?" Sorry, but I disagree. Those other people i helped would disagree, too. As I said, I didn't open the can of worms, I was just trying to limit the potential for damage.

Absolutely. Hence my original post on the subject, advocating some basic troubleshooting steps to help isolate the cause, and stress testing.

My initial post, more than 24 hours ago, was trying to get to this exact point (I had the same thoughts). The questions I asked were intended to isolate whether the CPU issues could be part of it (and can do so, given proper answers and follow up). Note I say whether, because there was no assumption on my part, just curiosity. Unfortunately in the following hours I was distracted by legitimately dangerous suggestions; endless BS about Nvidia lawsuits; horribly cheap, poorly designed GPUs made with substandard materials; and supposedly skilled people mishandling connectors.

Read whatever you wish, absolutely your choice. Sorry if you can't see the difference in what's happening here and an "Ego battle", but it doesn't mean there is no difference. Pretty much everything I've written here is intended to help the OP, and in fact any other readers that happen along. If it prevents an inexperienced and unknowing user from trashing their computer with a mismatched cable, I'd say that's helpful. (And yes I've seen it happen)

Again, very obvious who hasn't a clue. I'll stick with letting the OP decide. Pretty sure he can smell the BS before he steps in it.

NVM...just not worth it. The OP can decide if he really wants to take advice from the guy who linked a cable that could've trashed his PC (etc)

Doesn't prove anything. Nvidia doesn't design the connector, that would be the PCI SIG - proving once again exactly how clueless you are. (Let me save you a little time finding yet another link that doesn't say what you think it does: PCI SIG has already long since washed their hands of responsibility, too...and I'm sure you also didn't know that). Moreover you apparently think that Nvidia has no lawyers of their own (or that they'll just fail to show up, or something...) I am quite sure they will mount a vigorous defense. And, as usual, you continue to evade the points I've made previously.

The false info in the Wikipedia article you linked was glaring and obvious. But you aren't addressing that. The cable you linked wasn't appropriate to the OP at all, and could have caused a disaster. But you aren't addressing that, either. If your hardware failed because of what you described, then either you or your vendor caused it, plain and simple. And you're also not addressing that. In reality, a properly trained professional could've seen the issues with the connectors in your setup, even if they were brand new. And you're not addressing that. Every fact that shows exactly how clueless you are, you just want to ignore. And again here you go, clutching at yet another straw... The last link you've posted doesn't change anything about what I've said. Apparently you're so completely oblivious that you don't even understand that, nor the actual point in the article you linked It will be a trick indeed if someone can prevail in a lawsuit proving Nvidia made all the connectors that failed. (Hint: They didn't). You gonna sue Nvidia because you or your vendor doesn't know how to properly plug in a connector? Because some Chinese knock off is made if subpar materials? I'm still laughing. (BTW that article is already almost two years old lol but i guess you didnt notice that...where's this class action now?) Simple reality is this: There are a ton of people, myself included (and the OP, I imagine) who bought actual high quality components, and therefore haven't had any problems. Plenty of us have used even multiple products with the original 12VHPWR connector and had no issues. Maybe more of us than those of you who can't plug a connector in properly. Bad news for that class action, I guess. You don't know what you're talking about. Every time I prove your point wrong, you ignore that, run off and find another link that (still) doesn't prove anything you think it does.

Dude, give up. Just don't. I don't have time to argue with you. All this "non falsifiable" baloney...so you're asserting that everything on Wikipedia is accurate. I'm really laughing out loud now. I know about the hardware. I know about the revisions. I know about the materials and construction. I know these things because of formal education and professional experience. "So there wasn’t a clue otherwise until the screen just went black." A properly qualified, skilled and educated professional could have looked at those connectors, even when they were brand new, and told you they were problematic. There's plenty of "clue", but it won't be meaningful if you don't have a clue. You just finished linking a cable replacement that could have ruined someone's computer. And it's a cheap cable at that. Then you cite a Wikipedia article obviously written by someone who clearly isn't an expert, as if it were gospel. You obviously aren't familiar with the differences in materials and manufacturing, either. When I point these facts out, you have no answer. You just don't acknowledge them, and go right on to some other line of hooey. You act like an expert because you spent a bunch of money for someone else to build an expensive computer. That's not training or experience, and apparently the stuff they sold you wasn't all that great anyway. lol Even if it failed because it got knocked loose...who did that? Either you or your "vendor". Or it came off because of being moved? Wow. I ship PCs all over the country, never had a connector come loose like that. Again, you simply have no idea how any of this works.

Again you have zero idea what you're talking about. Just please stop already. For one, we do realize that Wikipedia articles can be written and edited by almost anyone, no? That means people just like you can write whatever. Doesn't make it an authoritative source. To prove the point, that article was written at least in part by someone who does know their a$$ from a hole in the ground. It says "...RTX 4090, the first GPU to use the new connector". Bullsh*t. I had a 3090Ti in my shop months before the 4090 came out. It had a 12VHPWR connector. So the article is obviously misguided to begin with. Second, the failures were, and still are about crappy design, poor materials, and shoddy construction. We do understand that not all metal connector pins and plastic shells are of the same materials, no? And not all assembled in the same fashion, no? Cheap cards, with bad connectors and cheap cables. Like the first unit you had. Then you bought a Chinese knock off brand from Amazon which I can assure you had some of the same flaws as before. This is your "solution". Wow. I don't expect you to understand any of this, because you clearly have no training or experience in these areas. So please stop trying to sound like you do. Seriously. Paying a "PC Vendor" a ton of money for high end components (several of which wound up failing, it seems) just doesn't make you an expert.

No. Just...no. In the first place, he already indicated he has a power supply that has the 12VHPWR connector, and it's almost certainly a high-quality unit. It would be exceptionally unlikely that the cable on such a PSU is causing this. Your unit most likely failed, as the others have, because of a cheap design, bad materials, and/or shoddy build quality - which, BTW, probably didn't change much if at all when you bought a knock-off Chinese brand...JOYJOM, really? (The ones that all the drama is about are failing because they're bad designs made from cheap materials, almost certainly the same as the one you linked. IIRC, your original 4090 was a cheap, low-end unit). Moreover - and FAR MORE DANGEROUS - is recommending* replacement cables for a DIFFERENT MANUFACTURER'S power supply - modular PSU cables are *NOT* interchangeable and will absolutely destroy a computer when connected wrong because of using one brand's cable with another brand's power supply. To prove the point, the cable you linked on Amazon says right in the description: Corsair Power Supply ONLY. You have a Corsair PSU, the OP does not. Seriously, dude, stop giving advice. You don't know what you're talking about. This little tidbit alone could've cost someone their PC. I know, because I've rebuilt a couple where the owner made this exact mistake, and it cost them a machine. * even if you didn't recommend it outright, to mention it at all when you don't know the reader's level of experience is a mistake. Anyone reading this might just as easily think, "Well, it worked for that guy"(...written on the internet, must be true...) buy it, plug it in...and poof.

Interesting. I noticed you didn't indicate some details about your system which might be helpful: Who built the system? What motherboard? What CPU cooling? (Yes, I read the part about temps being OK, question re: cooling still applies, if you please) You have a 1300KF, which (in this case) is unfortunate, because there's no integrated graphics adapter. This would allow connecting a second monitor to see if it's the GPU output going away or the whole machine (FWIW I believe it's the machine, not the GPU). Any chance you can come up with a small, 'entry level' type GPU (GT 710 etc) to use for testing? I'd install one just to connect another monitor, to help see what's taking place. (Note: Obviously this would depend on what motherboard you're using, hence my question above). TBH I don't think it's the GPU - and yes, I am taking into account what you said about RMAing the first GPU (I'll gladly discuss further if you wish). Anyhow, all this isn't intended as a 'magic fix'...it's just something you can try to help identify the issue. Incidentally, you mention removing a bunch of bloatware (which is good)...any chance you're using Corsair software to control/monitor liquid cooling? Also, one other question: As far as I can see, you mention this issue occurring during DCS, but don't mention any other games or utilities. Specifically, have you done any stress testing (i.e. for GPU/CPU) such as 3DMark etc to see if you can duplicate the issue?

Well said.

Of course, a lot of what you say is true. I just got a laugh from the 'polishing a turd' remark; didn't intend to step on toes. I think I "got the joke" that @Hiob intended, maybe others not so much. I also do both Intel and AMD machines - but you know, here's a sort of telling (albeit anecdotal) metric: I haven't done many new Intel machines at all, mostly AMD. Of course, I do a lot of used stuff, and less new stuff in general. But still, seems to reflect what's taken place in actuality: AMD is doing a lot better of late than Intel. I'd probably say that, with the possible exception of the 12000s, Intel has been sort of slacking since the 10000s. It seems you've had problems getting memory to work in AM5 builds; I don't share that experience. I have used fully-populated slots on all the AM5 builds I've done so far and all work exactly as expected. And that's with 6000Mt modules at a decent CAS below 40, and without having to pay so much for 30. It works, predictably and reliably. People have problems, IMHO, when they push too hard on what AMD has already described. Keep it reasonable=no problems, at least for me Far as the e-cores goes, I personally don't endorse the idea adding (yet another) piece of software to get hardware to behave. Don't have to do that on any of the AM5s I've built, either. I think the e-cores concept is more akin to marketing gimmick than brilliant engineering design. More cache works way better, and I think that speaks for itself - and loudly so. And that's the thing: With the extra cache/X3D parts, I believe AMD has actually 'changed the game' (pun completely intended). Where the Intel lineup...well, not so much. Higher clocks, more heat, more power. (Hey... that sounds sort of familiar for some reason...) If we're being honest - and I do have some training and background in this area - the whole power and heat thing is basically why CPU makers started making chips with more cores to begin with, since faster and faster clocks were rapidly becoming untenable (back in the day). Can't dissipate heat as well, and all the while the package is getting smaller...(ever wonder why the IHS came about? Or why the TIM was such a big deal back in in the Kaby Lake/Coffee Lake units?) It honestly seems like Intel has been trying to just go back to faster clocks, more power, more heat...which, again, simply becomes untenable after a while. Hell, one could argue that this is more like what was being done far more than 10 years ago. And where does it lead? Well, to the degradation issues, that's where. This isn't a new problem. Overclocking CPUs has generally always involved more voltage and thus more heat. Get too crazy and eventually the chip becomes unable to run stable without more voltage. Then even that won't run stable...and eventually it won't run stable (if at all) without lowering speed significantly. Electromigration is real, and it's not new: >LINK< A quote: As the structure size in electronics such as integrated circuits (ICs) decreases, the practical significance of this effect increases. Sound familiar? Wow. (Yes, Intel also had some 'corrosion' issues, but even they say it's a separate matter, and certainly doesn't explain what's happening now). So I don't think it's really fair to say AMD is only succeeding lately because Intel has sh*t the bed. Intel has indeed screwed up, no doubt. But at the same time (recent 9000 flops laid aside; a different discussion) AMD has done something inside the CPU that actually made a big difference, and it wasn't the "brute force" buzzword that everybody's now using about what Intel has done. It's not just Intel losing ground...it's also AMD gaining ground. I should point out here, for context, I've been a lifelong Intel user since I built my first PC c.1990; it was a big deal when I got a 387 chip (yes, 387). But when the 10th gen Intel CPUs came out, I was done. AMD was already clearly pulling ahead at that point, and I had seen all I needed to see. Next upgrade, I built a 5800X3D and never looked back. Anyway, probaby a bit off topic now, for which I apologize....but I just wanted to say I simply 'got the joke' earlier.

I wouldn't describe it as 'optimized for VR' - that's a little too specific IMHO and the potential for misunderstandings exists. The X3D chips AMD makes are - broadly and generally - better for gaming. That's because of their guts inside (the "3D part", has to do with adding more cache in layers [hence 3D] inside the CPU). Most games like this cache although not all. With that said, I think most anyone will agree that yes, the X3D CPUs are very adept at DCS, even with VR.

Holy sh*t I actually LOLd and I've not heard a more eloquent summary of this mess since it started. 10 year old turds....indeed LOL

I would submit there's a lot more going on there than has anything directly to do with CPU performance. Just as an example, a guy can be a complete moron and still have a YouTube Channel, and if enough people watch it, he can get sponsored and/or get most if not all his hardware for free. I know someone who streams and did exactly that, and I'm sure it's not uncommon at all. This is definitely among the reasons I mention that having all the nice hardware doesn't make you an expert. Trust me, I've seen plenty right here on this and other flight sim forums to know. Sad part to me is that a lot of people (by no fault of their own) can't tell the difference... ...long and short: Again, be selective about who you work with and take advice from. Anyone worth a flip will have no difficulty proving they've done it for others who are satisfied.

How very interesting. I have not less than three 12xxx builds in my shop at this very moment. And for the very reasons cited: Less cost, and no funny business. FWIW I also agree generally about both low- and super high-end motherboard models. Yet another reason I will continue to say work with an experienced builder who can show demonstrated success. There are instances/people where some of the high-end boards' features are appropriate and useful (my very own X670E was chosen specifically for two such features)...but the best way to know is deal with someone experienced and knowledgeable.