kksnowbear

Not really true. There are often better options, even if someone can't or doesn't want to build a machine themselves. It has zero to do with whether some works in IT.

Without knowing both what you paid and when, there is zero way to corroborate the "premium" you paid...but I can just about guarantee it was way more than any $500. Here's how I know this: While no one can say what they charged you in margin without knowing what you paid and when, anyone can go over to the Origin website and see what they cost right now, today. I've done that, and it's just as bad as the Corsair I mentioned in the other thread. To 'configure' a machine with a 7800X3D/X670E board, a 4090, 64G DDR5, and 2TB of PCIe 5.0 storage... ...was over $4500, before tax. Add taxes, even an average 6%, it will be almost $4800. I can absolutely assure you they're making more than any $500. Even if I count retail prices for the parts, I'm pretty sure it's possible to to build a better machine for $1500 less. But here's the thing: These guys don't pay retail for the parts (of course). So they're actually making more still. Once you consider the difference in component cost at retail vs what these guys pay, it's not hard at all to see they could easily make $2000 (and I'm counting labor to build the thing, too). And you still don't get to specify what 4090 they're selling you. It could be a crappy Zotac that's known to be one of the worst board designs (which I think might be what they sold you the first time)...it could be a 4090FE that, while it's better than the Zotac, there are much better 4090 models out there. This is part of how these outfits make money to increase profit: Cutting costs on lower-quality parts. Also, some of the vendors (Corsair/Origin) use 'in-house' brands for much of the build, and although it is true I don't have any privileged information, I can promise you that the vast majority of what you're paying for those components is pure profit. If you're paying $200 retail for a Corsair branded case, what do you suppose their cost is on that unit? Less than $100 for sure...maybe $50? Businesses like this just don't exist to make any 10% margin In Corsair's Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2023 Financial Results https://ir.corsair.com/news-releases/news-release-details/corsair-gaming-reports-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-2023 it states in part the following: Michael G. Potter , Chief Financial Officer of Corsair, stated, “... our Gaming Components and Systems gross margin increasing 300 basis points to 21.3 percent from 18.3 percent in 2022." On a $4800 system (as I just configured over at Origin), a 21.3% margin represents *over* $1000. Profit. That's after all costs in parts, labor, and yes you can bet they've allowed for the support cost over time, too. Granted, there's a lot combined in that "gaming components and systems" - but again, they're not paying retail prices for parts they re-brand, not by a mile! In fact, I'd venture that one of the biggest reasons they're in the systems business to begin with is because they have their hooks in so many of the components (though not all), they probably make more than most other vendors, since their costs are likely lower for more of the parts. And because they're a huge name, I'm gonna bet they're getting a pretty good deal on parts that they don't own - like motherboards, and GPUs that retail for $1800+ Plus, as I already indicated, the support isn't all you made it out to be: Unless I'm missing something, it's not 24/7. Phone support is available 6AM-8PM PST; that's only 14 hours a day. If you're on the west cost, and have a job with typical 9-5 working hours, that's not a lot of hours outside when you have to be at work - vs evenings/nights when most people actually have time to be on the phone with support. The rest of the day, it appears their 'support' is not live phone support. I can't speak for other builders, but I can assure you I've provided support well outside that kind of hours (and yes, even on holidays, which some of the vendors don't even do at all). I'm sorry but, as a builder, I just don't consider a chatbot comparable to my being personally available to a client. Not even close. So: Origin's cost appear to be just as bad as others. Support: Still not 24/7 live support, and depending on where you live/work, amounts to a few hours a day. That's now three online 'vendors' I've looked at (albeit briefly)...I can't help but feel as if I'm wasting time here, because I'm not seeing anything other than what I expected: Overpriced builds that don't necessarily provide any material or service benefit that warrants the outrageous cost difference. Not everyone needs to build their own PC, true enough. But there are builders who can typically offer much better deals. Now I'm going to quote what I said earlier:

Further on this topic: I briefly checked the Falcon Northwest site to get an idea of their offerings. First of all, their support is 0900-1800 (PST). That's only 9 hours a day; if you happen to live on the west coast and have a 9-5 job, you're pretty much looking at taking time off work to talk to their support. It also indicates they're not available on 6 major holidays a year (Christmas, 4th July, Thanksgiving, Labor Day, Memorial Day, New Years Day). Moreover, I briefly went through the process of configuring one of their mid-tower "Talon" systems with a 7800X3D, a 4090, 64G DDR5 6000 RAM, and a 2TB PCIe 5 NVMe drive. The total cited was $5863, and that's before shipping and taxes. Our tax rate is a fairly average 6%, and still puts you over $6200 not counting shipping. I damn near passed out. Wow. That's over $1000 more expensive than the (already outrageous) Corsair system I discussed in the other thread linked above. As I said previously: If you get even close to the option to configure these prebuilt machines with components that are not low-end junk, the price goes through the roof - and this was with a 4090 FE, arguably not the best 4090 out there (but it's all they offer...see?) It also included only 2TB of fast storage, and an in-house branded 280mm AIO cooler. To be brutally honest, for a price tag exceeding $6000, I'd expect more. And I mean a LOT more. That's just *way* too much money for what you're getting, in my opinion. $6200 plus shipping...yikes.

My advice is to avoid all prebuilt machines. If the vendor doesn't allow you to specify *all* the components used, it's a prebuilt. This includes Dell and HP, as well as Corsair and others named above. I may be wrong but I am unaware of any of them offering complete control over all components used - and even if they do, the build will almost certainly be outrageously expensive. That's because they make money by controlling some or all the guts they offer. Prebuilt machines are unnecessarily expensive for what you get, and you also have limited-to-zero choice for at least some of the components used. Saying you can get a "4090" in a prebuilt is *not* specifying an exact component. Some of the big names use some of the worst internal components in order to reduce costs and increase profit. Zotac 4090s are notoriously bad designs, but IIRC some of the biggest names (Corsair?) use them in their builds. Buyers who don't understand there are crucial differences in various GPUs think a 4090 is as good as any other. That's just not true. And that's just GPUs. Prebuilts often do this same thing with motherboards, power supplies, and other internal components. But don't take my word for it: Call them. Ask if you can specify manufacturer and model of internal components like the GPU, motherboard, and power supply...and if so, what the impact on price will be. Additionally, the build quality is often not what it should be - and I speak from decades of experience "working behind" some of these builds. The assemblers are often focused on things like "key production metrics"; speed instead of quality. A "custom" build from a competent builder, OTOH, will let you specify every component used (if you want), allowing you complete control over the quality of the hardware. It's also possible you can save a considerable amount of money. And a builder isn't likely to be bound by performance metrics the way big outfits are. Custom is not the same as prebuilt, and the difference is perfectly clear. Especially to someone who's experienced with doing this kind of work. The online vendors' marketing often confuses the two terms, uses them interchangeably, applies them inaccurately etc - but my definition is based on the premise that "custom" means just that: Custom. They will provide whatever you want and are willing to pay for. That's a custom build. Anything else is prebuilt; simple as that. IMO you're better off to find a reputable builder who stands behind their work, has references that can be verified, and offers support that you actually need and is useful. A chatbot isn't necessarily helpful just because it appears to respond at 2 am. I'd suggest careful scrutiny of the exact nature of "24/7" support. (Interestingly, I just checked the Origin website, and at least a quick look indicates their support is "Available from 6AM - 8PM PST". This is 14 hours, not 24, and (as a builder myself) I can guarantee you that I've taken care of many clients *well* past 8PM. There are other places on the site that state 24/7, but they appear to be dated, so it's possible that it's changed. At best it's simply not clear, and the image above was taken directly from their home page https://www.originpc.com/ ) So again: What is being claimed/offered bears confirmation. I would also suggest you review the thread below, where it is repeated several times: Avoid prebuilts. To be clear, I am not saying a prebuilt machine is never an option - it may well be the only option, depending on circumstances. What I am saying is it should only be the choice if there is absolutely no other option IMO, and even then you have to accept that it may not contain the best components or build quality, and still may cost hundreds (a thousand? 1500? 2000?) more than a comparable or better machine, with equal or better support. If I may, it would be helpful if you could provide some detail on what you have now, what you might be interested generally (i.e. top-of-the-line, "midrange", etc) and (perhaps most important) what your budget and timeline is.

Precisely...that's exactly what I do (though I only image the boot drive, but nothing wrong with being thorough). At one point, I actually kept a second set of drives inside my machine, already imaged and ready to go (not connected). If anything happened, open the case, move the connections, you're in business. (The obvious drawback being cost of two drives just sitting there against the advent of a disaster).

I would concede that I could be missing something, but I'm not sure it would be necessary to image both drives. If I understood the post above about what is being modified for testing, then it seems like only the boot drive is required. Maybe I'm missing something? You mentioned re-installing Windows...do you also reinstall the game on the separate drive as well? As far as software goes, I'm still using Macrium Reflect. It sucks that they've moved to a subscription model, but you can still find downloads for the older, free version (careful where you download from!). It just isn't going to be updated, but (for me) I can deal with that. Macrium isn't the only one though. Admittedly I haven't spent time looking, but that's the 'legwork' that is usually unavoidable. Finding good software that's also free isn't necessarily easy, that's just the reality I'm afraid. Even when you do find something, they usually get around to screwing it up one way or another. If you're using Windows 10 (can't speak for 11, since I don't use it), there is actually a tool right in Windows that works, and is free. Just kinda clunky. But hey, of the 'perfect trifecta' (good/works well, easy to find/use, and free) it seems you're lucky to get two of the three these days The real downside of the Windows 'method' is you have to do the restore on the same machine where the image was created (as opposed to Macrium, for example, and others I've used, where you can restore a target drive from an image on a different machine). In my case, I use my desktop to create/restore images for all the builds I work with; using Windows' tool requires doing the process on the target machine. With the imaging approach, a good part of the effort is up front, but saves you time and hassle whenever you need to restore. Doing the reinstall 'manually' as you indicated doesn't require *any* effort up front, but you pay for it every time you need a clean install. Your specific use case may mean it's just as well doing the 'manual' method - that's a choice that varies by the individual/situation. Hopefully all that makes sense. Best of luck

Drives can be had for cheap (and your time has value too!) I typically use the smallest, cheapest drives I can get when I'm shuffling "scratch drives" around. For example, if it's just for testing, then rather than use a 2TB Gen4 NVMe drive, use an old SATA 500G drive If it's temp just for testing, who cares? I actually buy these scratch drives in bulk because I get better prices and use a lot of them. I don't leave them in the final production builds, so no worries if they're cheap.

There is *zero* confusion about the term "prebuilt". I already outlined this earlier. Most people don't have any difficulty understanding it. I'd really like to see a prebuilt vendor who allows a customer to specify every part of a build. I've never seen one, although I'd have to admit I haven't spent a lot of time considering prebuilt vendors to begin with. By all means, enlighten me - but be aware, allowing a customer to do things like pick "4090" from a drop down list of the GPUs they offer *is not* the same as allowing the customer to specify all the internal components. Not by a mile. These vendors won't do this because if they do, they can't make money by using things like off-brand power supplies and drives, feature-stripped motherboards, or the worst "4090" ever designed lol However, even if there *is* such a thing, as I've already said, any advantage gained is going to be completely offset by cost that can easily approach *double* what a comparable machine can be built for. And even then, never mind the parts used, there is the matter of build quality, which I do have extensive, first hand experience with - and it's generally lacking, in my experience. Others in this thread seem to echo that experience as well. Again, if there's absolutely no other choice, sure. But accept that you'll be paying more, for both parts and labor that are not necessarily consistent with the higher price.

This sounds like a textbook case for drive imaging. Why not just do that, and skip all the time/effort associated with reinstalling? It's fairly easy, very fast by comparison, and there is good, free software available.

Can't speak for anyone else, but I didn't advocate "...dumping $5000 worth of computer parts on the dining table and giving him a screwdriver..." I specifically said that the support you retain makes the difference. Buying parts alone obviously secures zero support and expertise. I also didn't say I recommended a total DIY build. I said laypeople do it all the time, as much as I cringe at the idea.

Just be really (really) careful with PCPartPicker...they are motivated by click-through revenue, and don't always recommend the best components, price, or value.

Yeah...I just looked at prices on the Corsair prebuilts...damn near fell outta the chair (after I crapped my pants...). Wow. The *lowest* price I saw for a system with a 4090 was $3700. Pay taxes on that where I live it's damn near $4000 (and our tax rate here is only 6%...MN can go as high as $4025). Holy mother of pearl. (And it's a 13900K, that has 64G RAM that's 5600MT/s...and only 2TB storage. For that price, these are not specs to brag about TBH). And, unless I'm mistaken, Corsair doesn't actually make (or even rebrand) motherboards or graphics cards...so they can cram whatever they want in there. This is common among prebults, and exactly what I meant about not having control over component selection. You could do much (much) better for that kind of money, I am absolutely certain. It does demonstrate exactly what I said earlier, though: If you get something that's built with decent quality parts, then the price isn't going to be all that great. And this actually appears to be neither a great price nor control over the key parts being used. So...worst-case cost and *still* lacking control over exact components used? Can't say I would recommend that.

Your situation is tricky, but not insurmountable. I think the difference might be the support you get. I can't speak for anyone else, but I have done "consults" where either I sold someone the guts or they bought their own, and I walked them through the build process "remotely". Yes, this can take (and has taken) quite a bit of time - but that's where it matters that you're not working with someone who's doing it for profit. I have built/shipped/worked with people all over the country in this fashion (CA, MO, NJ, FL, IN, OK, NC...yes, even MN). The advantage is you control the selection of components entirely, as well as the build itself. The disadvantage is that it can be a pain, and yes, things can go wrong. Again, this largely depends on the support you get. The fact is - as much as I may physically shudder at the thought - laypeople build their own computers all the time. There's no licensing required, no permits needed, no regulation or oversight. Just buy a box of parts and we're off to the races. The (very) unfortunate reality is that it works in the overwhelming number of instances. So, if you're anywhere near capable with precision tools, you're possibly not as ill-prepared as a lot of people who already did it. Still...as mentioned above, given your circumstances, I'm afraid you can't rule out that a pre-built machine might be a more appropriate choice (and I'm choosing words very carefully here). The advantage is it's about as straightforward as it gets: Order, open box, push button and (hopefully) click-click, whir-whir. The disadvantages include that you're trusting low-level assembly labor (*very* low-level, trust me) and relinquish at least some control in terms of component selection. Personally, the idea of a pre-built machine makes me cringe TBH...but it might be the 'lesser of evils' and that's a decision you'll have to make for yourself. I would begrudgingly acknowledge it might be the only realistic choice in some cases - with the caveat that you get what you pay for (and I'm not talking about cost). Me personally, if I'm anywhere near capable with building stuff and precision tools, I'd go for building myself over a prebuilt just about any day. As was mentioned above, it seems your concerns are more about which components to choose - but I don't advocate letting someone else decide (prebuilt) just to avoid the effort involved in a careful selection process. The control you sacrifice in quality isn't worth the effort you save in my opinion.

I think it's generally understood that "prebuilt" means a machine that you don't build yourself, and is made up of components which you are not entirely at liberty to specify (thus not completely controlling either components or build quality). By comparison, a 'custom build' might not be one you built yourself, but you have the opportunity to specify guts in as much detail as you prefer (be it with or without assistance). A 'self-built' (or DIY) machine is (rather obviously) one you build yourself, and thus completely control the selection of components and quality of build (for better or worse). It is entirely possible to retain competent assistance without buying parts or labor from someone else; I've done parts, parts and labor, and labor only, as well as consultation (labor, but not actually building). I have two issues with Corsair, in spite of agreeing that they might be among the better quality choices: One, cost. Without actually looking, I'm going to guess it's like I said earlier: If you can specify a build from them that uses all top-notch components, the price is probably going to be comparatively high (and I'd guess not by a little bit, either). Two, propriety. Corsair is known for making their system components more and more part of their "ecosystem", and it's just getting worse as time goes on. Mind you, they're not the only ones; these days everyone seems to be doing it (Asus, MSI...) but Corsair started before the others and seems - to me - more determined about using it to corner the customer into buying more stuff from them. The entire PC industry spent a long time (and many bumps in the road) trying to become less proprietary and more open-standard. This is why we even have 'clone' PCs these days. Meanwhile, companies like HP, Dell and others have consistently tried to corner customers into buying from them exclusively with proprietary designs...and although Corsair isn't as bad as HP or Dell...they aren't free of fault in this area either. I specifically avoid components which I know are proprietary and thus will often have issues working properly with other, more generic hardware.

Precisely. Unfortunate but (generally) that is the reality. At least in my experience - and I'm speaking from the perspective of someone with formal training in military avionics and decades of hands-on experience (as opposed to having a lot of money to just throw at the most expensive thing).

Which is why I said "Better off to find an experienced local builder who stands behind the work offered". There are builders out there who guarantee their work, 100%, no questions asked. It is up to the buyer to do the "legwork". One of the most important tools a consumer has is to insist upon references which can be verified. Some of us don't require an organization to hold us accountable. In fact, the argument could be made that someone doing the work as an individual isn't bound by company policies, need to make margin, appease the stockholders etc...(all reasons why I actually do this myself, having spent a good part of a career dealing with that sort of 'accountability'). An individual is free to make decisions based on other factors, such as customer loyalty, and is also more likely to take a genuine pride in their work than an hourly assembler who is constantly hammered to meet "key performance metrics". Believe me, I've seen the worst of what that produces. Some of us are blessed such that we don't do it for the money - and you won't find a company anywhere that can say that. And having an organization for holding people accountable doesn't prevent companies from doing terrible work. As I said, I've 'worked behind' a number of prebuilt machines from some of the biggest names out there, and they get away with plenty, I can assure you.

If you want BTDT advice, I would strongly recommend you avoid any 'pre-built' machines unless there is absolutely no other choice. They often use cheap components to 'make price', and I am speaking from first hand experience, having dealt with quite a few machines from the likes of iBuyPower, Alienware, etc. If you could get an arrangement where they'd let you specify *all* the components exactly, it might be one thing, but a. I don't think they'd do it, and b. if they did, then their price wouldn't be all that great. Again, they make price by cutting corners, and that's just reality. And don't even get me started about workmanship. I've seen hideous things that were just left by the assemblers these places hire. Out of sight, out of mind...trust me, they're paid for speed, not quality. Again, unless you have no other alternative at all, I'd avoid those places. Better off to find an experienced local builder who stands behind the work offered, who will let you specify all the internal components (or at least identify them all for you), and who offers a level of support you can live with. It's really not necessary or even a good idea to insist on 24/7 support (and I'd have a lot of questions about anyone offering that anyway, in terms of what form it takes etc...getting a "response" from a chat bot at 2AM, or someone you can't understand who answers the phone from somewhere in the far east is hardly what I'd call 'support'). Also, an 850W power supply is not really adequate for a 4090. Although *some* models specify an 850 minimum, some models also specify a 1000W minimum. This is largely determined by the power levels set in a GPUs BIOS. Factually, there are reputable sources online that have shown 4090's can draw peaks in excess of 700W (and that's the GPU alone - so never mind a bunch of going on about the rest of the system). You can run a 4090 on an 850 (I can already hear the squawking now)...but, factually, it will not run as reliably, or as efficiently, and likely not for as long as it would if you had a larger capacity PSU - and that's just an absolute fact of the way electronics work, which is indisputable. Worse still, it may suffer lock-ups, reboots, and crashes. From the BTDT perspective you specified: I own a 4090, and it's one for which the manufacturer recommends a minimum 850W PSU (not even a 1000W). I can tell you I did first-hand shop testing with five separate 850W PSUs, all reputable 80+ Gold models from very well-known names in the industry, and all rated for 850W *continuous* output at 50c (much warmer than ambient in my test environment). These were not cheap, knock-off PSUs. Yet of the five, two rebooted while stress-testing with my 4090. It is also worth noting that all five of these units were proven to run a setup that was measured to draw nearly 700W without incident - yet two of them couldn't handle the 4090. That means the 4090 system was drawing in excess of 700W before rebooting with two of the units. (And for the record, no this was not some stupid Intel 14th gen space heater, either). Plus, even if an 850 will run a 4090, all switched mode PSUs (what our PCs use) operate at their highest efficiency when loaded around 50%...again, just another electronic fact. So even if you only assume a 500W load while gaming, you'd want a 1000W unit so that it's loaded somewhere around 50% at most. This uses less power and generates less waste heat which is dumped into your room (thereby creating more load on whatever AC you're using - or just making it miserable). (EDIT: Before the personal attacks get started claiming my recommendations are motivated by my trying to sell something, let me say this: It is true that I build systems for others, but I have zero interest in this case. I don't generally do builds involving the "latest and greatest" components (though I have, when specifically commissioned). The costs involved in most current-gen hardware, like the OP is interested in, are such that I can't typically offer much of a deal on it - so I rarely do anything with the most recent generation of hardware. Thus, my advice isn't motivated in this case by interest in selling anything.)

That's not really a very accurate characterization, IMHO. The drives have controller firmware configuration that limits speed based on temp. It's absolutely true that the drive will throttle to cool down, but I am (reasonably) certain you'd be hard pressed to find a drive - at least one from anything like a reputable source - that will kill itself over time rather than simply slow down. Slow down = less heat (and trust me, they know how hot it can run without causing failure, at least over the warranty period, certainly; probably well beyond that). I would agree generally that less heat in most anything electrical means it'll last longer...but that can vary broadly, and is not absolute. Certainly some devices can do better over time if they are allowed to run at an increased temperature (particularly if it's consistent). In computers, of course, we generally want to keep heat down, but most stuff is designed to slow down to protect itself these days (with some obvious and notable flaws at times, of course...*ahem* Intel). Most of these drives - certainly PCIe 5.0; possibly 4.0 and 3.0 drives - indicate they should be used with a heatsink of some sort. For example, here's what Crucial says about the T705 being discussed: 1. Non-heatsink versions of the Crucial T705 must be installed with a motherboard or alternate heatsink to achieve optimal performance. 4. Under typical conditions for airflow and ambient temperature, our pre-installed premium heatsink allows the T705 Gen5 SSD to run at max workload without the need to thermal throttle. Comparisons made to SSD temperatures without a cooling apparatus. Please ensure your drive has proper airflow for maximum performance. Note that it says 'to achieve optimal performance' and 'for maximum performance' - not "to ensure full lifespan" or "to avoid shortened lifespan". This means that the drive will throttle to save itself ill effect from heat, but obviously won't perform as well. That's the very reason for throttling, to reduce heat. Also, FWIW I've removed quite a few factory heatsinks, and while I wouldn't claim it's representative of the entirety, I will say that I've never seen one that has anything I'd call 'adhesive' holding the heatsink on; it's always been mechanical in my experience (clips, screws, etc). If you aren't comfortable with doing it and accepting the risk of screwing it up, don't try removing it. Get help from someone who knows what they're doing. But if you are comfortable with the risks: Work it slowly, use a non-abrasive tool like a plastic spudger or orangewood stick to leverage at the point of contact as you go. It's actually very straightforward. At most, the strip of thermal pad they use inside is more or less 'tacky', and sticks a bit along the length of a 2280 drive due simply to surface area. (Water can cause a glass to 'stick' to a smooth countertop, but it's not adhesive at all of itself). If there is some type of mechanical fastener - clips, screws, etc - then there's a very good chance the thermal pad inside isn't what's actually holding it together. FWIW I've never seen one that didn't employ some type of mechanical fastening (although that's not to say they don't exist). To be clear, the issue I take with the statement that 'going without (a heatsink) will shorten its lifespan' and similar perspectives is that it tends to cause laypeople to overreact to what are often normal operating conditions/'within normal limits' etc. I know a guy I've built several systems for, who gets very apprehensive if his components run even a touch warm. I've tried to explain his concerns are perhaps misguided, but that's one of the problems with people who know a little bit about electronics and computers: They know what they hear about "rules", but they don't truly have an understanding of the details involved, nor the effect on the end result. There's a good reason the old saying "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is still around after some 400 years.

Without actually studying it; yes, this can easily be the case. Again, I've owned both and built many others. While there are differences, and the X3Ds are widely known as the better gaming CPUs, the difference can be a lot less than all the hype suggests. And with fairly big differences in cost I've seen, like I said, I might even go so far as to say buy a 5800X, put the money saved toward a better GPU (which is going to make more of a performance difference, dollar for dollar). But again: Depends on specific price and availability, as it always does.

While it's certainly true the X3D CPUs are better at gaming, it's also very common knowledge - and thus reflected in prices. There's absolutely nothing wrong with "regular X" models (like 5800X). Having owned many and built many, many others including quite a few for DCS players from this site, I can tell you it's more a matter of budget. Naturally, if you can find and afford the cost difference for a 5800X3D, it's still a great CPU. However, a 5800X can deliver the vast majority of the same performance for a lot less money. Worth considering, to someone in the right circumstances. In fact, I'd even recommend that if there are significant budget constraints, the 5800X is a better move (or 5700X3D as above, depending on price and availability), assuming the difference is put toward a better GPU. Could more than make up for the difference in a 5800X vs an X3D. In short, nothing at all wrong about considering an X model Zen3 CPU instead of an X3D. It simply depends on the circumstances, particularly (as always) budget and availability.

If you're satisfied with the cost and other models aren't available, the 5800X seems like a perfectly reasonable compromise to me In fact, I built one for a guy from here on the forum not too long ago, and he seems very happy (he's using a 'vanilla' 4070, for reference). Best of luck to you!

Yeah, that's also sometimes an issue: availability. It seems the 5800X3D is getting sort of scarce - though I haven't looked much at all TBH. Makes the 5700X3D perhaps more attractive IMHO. Yes, the 5950X is also perfectly capable, though the 5800X3D remains - if arguably - the best gaming CPU from the Zen3 lineup. The 5950X has other features that might be more appropriate in a general/varied workload environment, but for pure gaming, I think the X3Ds are better. That said, cannot come up with a 5800X3D and if you can get a decent price on a 5950X where you are, also a great choice for an AM4 upgrade IMHO

It's actually a pretty good choice if we assume someone wishes to upgrade (an AM4 board) without having to replace motherboard and probably memory. I believe the comment you're referring to was itself referring to another post from someone who has an AM4 board: Also, I'd go a step further to say the Zen3 X3D units are all still excellent gaming CPUs, regardless of being two generations old. Anecdotally, I'd say the Zen5 units aren't considered much of a 'generational' improvement, at performance gains generally in the 5% range. Kinda 'meh', to me anyway. My current machine is a 7800X3D/4090, but I still have my 5800X3D up and running with a 3090...magnificent gaming platform. Yes, it is. But it's also true that the 5700X3d might be had for a little less money, and is still a good gaming CPU in it's own right. As above, this is especially true where we're discussing anyone who still has an AM4 board and wishes to 'maximize' that platform vs replacing it.

I'm referring to what the OP stated; nothing more, nothing less. Not sure what you're intimating. Based on the OPs statement, IMO the response from the vendor was inadequate. As I've described, there's very little effort or time involved in a very different approach (and likely, a very different outcome). I can go back and check, but I'm pretty sure I've been careful to distinguish between opinion and fact in my comments. If that's not the case, I assure you I will acknowledge it and make corrections where appropriate. That said, I'd be grateful if I weren't attacked for having a different perspective, expressing my opinions, and referencing relevant fact where it applies. If the OP has omitted details that would alter my perspective, that's unfortunate, but it's not for lack of effort or intent on my part. I can only ask the questions, and then trust the OPs response is accurate. Technical support via written posts in a forum can be very difficult that way - but you can't fault the OP for asking, and you can't blame me for trying. I don't think it's appropriate to blame the customer here. For one, neither of us know when he called them (far as I can see) - so the OP may actually have reported it to Scan right away, and only now decided to seek advice, here on this forum. Unless I'm mistaken, the OP only says they would 'contact (Scan) again" - doesn't indicate when either contact (of at least two) was made, or how much time expired between (at least two) attempts. To me it seems like you could possibly be assuming something that's not accurate (unless, of course, you somehow "have privileged information concerning the phone call or live chat then of what took place", that is.) To be honest, you seem just a little sensitive about Scan in my opinion. Can't help but wonder if there's some sort of relationship that might create a conflict of interest. You've written several paragraphs that seem to be very "pro-Scan" (for lack of a better term). We all have our opinions, nothing wrong with it. But maybe don't be so quick to attack me for having a different perspective. I don't stand to gain or lose anything; I have no interest at all in Scan, just trying to help someone who did ask for help. Again, my comments are based strictly on what the OP stated. If (as OP says) the system has run loud since delivery, it's not his fault. As far as when he reports it, well, as I've already said, neither you nor I know exactly what happened or when. We *do* know, however, what *did* happen (at least, according to OP) - and I'm sorry if we disagree, but in my opinion it's simply inadequate to the issue at hand. If there's more to it, well, no one could say unless/until the OP provides more detail. I will say that, since the OP has indicated the intent to pursue the matter further with Scan, it would seem apparent OP also believes the response thus far has been inadequate as well. Otherwise, he'd be satisfied and have no need to call them back (or post here, to be accurate). Funny, that. Ah, yeah...the monitor thread...not sure why it's appropriate to bring that up here TBH...but (since you brought it up) yeah, it's really unfortunate that some people can't accept industry standards established by recognized expertise in a given field. Now, you've made your statement and I've responded...I think it's probably best this thread is not derailed with that, if you please.

Cool. They should have no problem taking care of the OPs problem then. Of course, one does have to wonder why they're telling the OP basically "Do it yourself" when asked for support, instead of "Let's walk you through some things - and if we don't get it done on the phone, I'll email you a shipping label right away." Identifying CPU and chassis fans based on speed can typically be done right in the BIOS in less than a minute, so no reason they couldn't walk someone through that on the very first call. Then a minute later or so, check GPU fans after booting Windows, using free and readily available utilities. Total length of that call is probably 30 minutes, worst case. So can't help but wonder what's up with "go into the bios and set the system to silent".