SimFan

Both. Bought F4:AF a few days ago (and love it). Also I would appreciate F4 AF DC & pits + LO GFX and AFM. But with both sims we already do have THE best of modern flight sims out there.

Proceed. The way I would proceed is to install some other sims first and try those. After that FC (I see no reason not to try it again). If this strange occurance does happen again from the start (with FC) it would be clear it has to do with either SF or FC (however unlikely). Are you sure it was no virus ? BTW. In the many years I have been simming I never had any sim do strange things to my systems other than freezing up occasionaly. Even F4 -back in 1998- was unable (and talking 'bout the very first version) to kill my system at the time :). I've had some problems with protected CD's too, but nothing a different CD drive couldn't handle :). Please keep us informed. Good Luck.

That's a first. I've never heard something like this (and I've been in the IT business for 25 years). I despise SF 'protection', but I have no idea how that could 'kill' a G card. And about FC itself: unless it would overwrite system drivers, there is no way it could do things even remotely as you describe. My original LO 1.02 installation did some nasty stuff in-memory at times (freezes, Windows hang), but never caused hardware problems in over a year. If FC (or any other sim) overheats the system (this is possible) it is a hardware problem for sure (and not FC related). Any Sim will cause 100% CPU (=DirectX) when in-game. This can overheat the system if fan(s) fail, OC and simple GFX hardware failure... You were talking about SF problems at first. Which one(s) ? Other than the 'usual' messing with CD/DVD programs/drivers, I never heard of others.

CD trouble. One would wonder why the HDD was invented. The only way out of this mess is either to take illegal? action (NO-CD cracks) or to buy a console, which of course is no option for us. As no gaming company cares about the troubles this protection gets their customers in (and believe me this is not the first 'protected' purchase giving me headaches), I don't see why customers (I don't mean thieves) would not be allowed to care and look for ways to stop this from happening. That's why I believe a request to ED for an early FC NO-CD crack is justified.

The way to do it. I don't think many people would doubt ED (or any owner) has the right etc etc. But the way THIS 'protection' is implemented punishes the truthfull customer and may scare the potential informed new buyers...(those aware of how SF checking works). It is a sad world. I (as most others) do understand and support ED in this. But for a 10-50USD add-on... this IS taking things to the limit. I forgive ED cause they are not as big (yet) as e.g. EA, and make superb software. BTW. wrote this (stupid, I know) fact before: I would really and gladly pay ED 100USD or more to get FC without SF and with NO-CD. Unfortunately that is not how it can work. Anyway, any hardcore simmer who has to care about 40 or so dollars may (unfortunately for him/her) have the wrong hobby. Good Luck ED. I really hope you sell lots of FC copies. I paid much more for 'stuff' not worth 1% of LO or FC (things like 1 plane or 1 country or a few missions... flight simmers know what I am talking about).

reasonable, yes. Your argument is reasonable, I agree. FYI. In the past (1999), a sim-CD like EEAH gave me lots of trouble. Had to actually buy (crazy, but I did) another CD-reader to get it installing (unpacking terrain files), due to ... copy-'protection'. Got in contact at the time with Richard Flexman (beta-tester), who got to Razorworks. In the end, after many such complaints, RW released patches without 'protection'. All I can say (done this before, many times): people who are after free games are no true Simmers. This won't stop them, cause I don't think any of those people would be interested in FC (lack of brains). So they won't even bother. Again: this is not Doom4 or HL3. Customers are always those that suffer. Non-customers WILL get it anyway, IF they even want to. And yes, I truly believe what I just wrote.

As for the release of LO 1.02 I would very much appreciate a later patch-version that allows NO-CD and removal of SF. Since we all know most people want a sim/game within the first month -and- the FC CD can't probably be copied anyway, what would it hurt. That way no legit customers that buy the CD version (like me) would not feel scr*wed by this. The same could also later be released for the Download version, or not ? Would ED care to comment on this. I read the SH3 sim got 'hacked' despite SF anyway, so why not remove this NOCD stuff with a subsequent patch ? (That way I could get those 4 awfull SF 'hidden' device drivers from my system! - only plan to have 1 such sim using it anyway: LockOn series).

Thx all. Thx all. Guess I'll be going for a long drive on Saturday ! But please, if anyone has any experience with the CD Version -and- StarForce (positive or negative), please let us know !! Thx. I'm going for a LONG drive on Saterday to get me the CD Version. Seems to sell very well (was told by shopkeeper). I was planning to not buy and install it at all cause of StarForce, but I'l give the CD version a try after all. But I hope ED understands: my (and other people's) rig is used for MUCH more besides this one sim. If SF messes with some of my other/business apps, it's not gonna be fun. I'm doing this ONLY because I think LO and FC are worth the risk. For ANY other sim I would never even consider this (SF driver mess).

What I am afraid of... Thx Dmut. But indeed, about the supposed DVD/CD writer software problems and SF... Does anyone or ED (hopefully) test compatibility with SF. Or is this testing NOT needed because this on CD version of SF protection can in NO way/ever interfere with other softwares that were NOT meant to interact with SF in the first place ?? If ED would simply communicate this to us, I don't thing there would ever be/have been any opposition against including it with FC. Please let us know exactly what StarForce will/will NOT do to our systems. I don't mean reveal trade secrets, simply what we should know to prevent and/or solve related problems. Is there a signifant difference/improvement between the SF version from FC Download and FC on CD ?

I am 100% convinced of the greatness of the FC software itself and my NEED for it, but... Before installing the English CD version of FC, I would really like to know if the type of Starforce 'keyless?' protection will mess with the Windows 'devices' in any way. Will it also add/create a (hidden) Virtual CD/DVD drive and thus interfere with Burning software such as Nero and WinOnCD (as I read it does with/for SHIII) ? Will it always install together with the game ? And, if so, can it later be completely removed as to no longer interfere with Burning Software in case this occurs and causes problems ? I read in several postings certain types of SF protection even HAVE necessitated to re-install Windows on certain configurations. I love LO, but would not have it ruin my rig in any way. This is NOT meant as bashing. I would really appreciate some straight and honest answers on this issue, if possible from ED people and/or beta testers.

Course These schemes seem more complicated than the FC code itself. - Maybe we could store the code in a golden cage and the CEO could swallow the key ? - Maybe the death penalty could be installed to deal with hiddeous crimes like unlocking the code ? - Maybe the remaining? customers could be given a course on how to deal with the complex copy protection schemes ? - Maybe anyone succeeding this course would get a post graduate university degree in advanced FC protection engineering ? (Or maybe ED could even allows us to pay for the game and install it) Possibilities are endless ! :wink:

No problem. The more difficult it gets to crack something, the more challenging it will be to some people to do it. It's a circle. I sure won't steal FC (whether I can or not), and I am sure most people here won't either. The people NOT in any FC forum probably won't BUY the game anyway. So what it comes down to is this: quite a lot negative publicity for the people deperate to buy the sim/addon. I don't really see what ED has to gain from going through all this trouble. Only the real Fans of LO will want any add-on anyway. As we all know LO is not the kind of game one masters in a couple of hours. The 'thiefs' are probably enjoying their stolen copy of doom 3 or whatever. What do we care if or what we have to pay ? I am pretty sure anyone putting out the addon on the 'net would sure not get any approval from this community. ED... don't worry.

Worth it. ANY delay is worth it if it means the SF protection junk won't make it into FC ! Let's face it. We now have LO v1.02 without any unnecessary protection. Why (having to pay for it or not makes no difference to me) would I put up with any software (how much I long for it does not matter to me) if it messes with my system in a way I believe to be unacceptable. I understand ED wants to protect their hard work. It is their right. And I would very much like to buy FC ASAP as anyone here... but not with SF or similar kind of 'additional always in-memory present driver protection'. And BTW... of course, any other software that comes with the likes of SF won't alse never get installed on my system. Thanks for listening to us ED. :!:

Hi Carl a.o., You are right that it is no use to complain before being 'hit' However, I am afraid this 'protection' is going to hurt sales a lot. First, there is no way to pay for it in the shop, no printed manual & keycard. Now this (which to me is much worse). I agree that if there in NO alternative, some may be driven to pay up anyway. I hope ED does not forget that it would also be possible to make a difference by NOT putting in any protection mechanism at all. This would increase sales IMHO. NOT for any game, I agree. But for a SIM like LO: yes, I firmly believe that. I will also NOT copy the game illegally (even if I could), simply because ED deserves to be paid. For most of us it is not about the money at all, as you know. If, for every app or sim, we would have to go through this kind of ordeal I think many people will pass. People playing LO on high-end machines are (mostly) no minors and can sure come up with the necessary cash. If ED drops this kind of protection (of which I was afraid they would since it is distributed over the net) I will be the 'first in line'. I rest my case. etc. ect. :?

another way. I feel exactly the same about it as Hodgepodge. Wanted to add... WE are the SIM community. Not your ordinary: "steal me a copy of this" crowd. Very few of us (if any) were even thinking about stealing your master piece game. WE are to proud for that. I can come up with technical reasons why I don't want that driver stuff on my system, but the main reason is: you don't trust us, I think many of us have just lost trust. It is indeed about money. But we are not to blame for the UBISOFT problem either. I know many companies will resort to this kind of anti-theft scheme and it is understandeable. But is hopy ED realizes our astonishment is understandeable too. I have bought software that requires activation before (not only Windows). But this is 'pushing the envelope'. Good luck with FC sales. :?: