The intricacies of cross-wind landing?

Anyone know the details of proper procedure for moderate to strong cross wind landing?

I've read the manual... a bit of extra speed, a bit of roll into wind, roll level & neutralise the crab for touchdown.

I haven't seen anything on cross wind speed limitations, I don't understand why you would use 'approximately half flaps'. And should I be trying to touch down with the upwind gear first? I.e a tiny bit of roll into wind prior to.

I can muscle it half the time with a strong cross wind but it's not exactly safe and reliable!

I can TO fairly reliably now but any thoughts here on proper procedure would be of interest.

There are several ways of going about it, but yeah, you sound like you're doing it right.

Some pilots prefer to fly coordinated, with their nose pointed slightly away from the runway, so that they don't drift off the runway. At the last moment before touchdown, they yaw towards the wind to put their nose in line with the runway. This method is a bit more dangerous than the normal method, because you'll drift off the runway if you don't touch down very shortly after the yaw. For this reason, I believe, most real pilots don't use this method, at least in taildragger aircraft.

The slip method you're using, bank & yaw, is the more reliable and popular method. It is my preference as well. You do generally touch down one wheel slightly before the other, but it shouldn't be a large discrepancy. It's the wheel that's in the direction that the wind is coming from.

In either case, the most important things in dealing with a crosswind touchdown (discounting the parts which also apply to a normal landing) are: firstly, ensuring that you are not drifting laterally relative to the runway when your wheels touch the runway, and secondly, that your aircraft's nose is horizontally aligned with the runway when the wheels touch. Getting those two bits to match up reasonably well is the tricky part, but, using the method you described, it shouldn't be too difficult.

I.M.O., the most difficult part of a crosswind landing is dealing with the greater amount of energy bleed which comes from the crab (this may be why the manual recommends less flap than usual), but that's largely because I perform all of my landings--crosswind or otherwise--"dead stick," that is, without relying on power during the approach. The only thing I use power for is to keep the engine from over-cooling, just a tiny bit, and I ensure that I never put myself into a situation where I wouldn't make the runway if the engine were to quit. I use a slip to cancel out any thrust, and I throttle back full to idle for the final, or earlier if my engine is hot enough.

Corrections to this post are welcome. It's been years since I studied the theory of crosswind landing, and some things are, once learned, easier to do than to explain, so it's possible that I've erred in my explanation, at some point or another. It's also possible that I learned something incorrectly.

Thanks Echo,

I'm definitely on the right track, and it's reassuring to hear others use a similar method, but I'm still not very consistent when its strongish, and I don't know where to draw the line with wind strength itself.

Have been practising them for a wee while but am lacking some of the finer points.

The transition from T/O roll to flight is often quite wild, with some fairly 'positive' moves needed to get stable, and my initial climb heading is very variable with each T/O (when I don't prang that is):).

Have been watching some of the 'flying wild Alaska' series, apparently it can a bit breezy in Alaska? They often seem to T/O with the ailerons very positively into wind, even for the T/O roll. I've just started trying this and I think it's helped a bit with the transition to flight bit? Likewise they seem to do this on the lndg roll as well.

Is this good or bad practise in a taildragger?

They also emphasise touching down the upwind wheel first which makes sense but I haven't heard that before from anywhere.

Is that just nose gear aircraft?

Does anyone Know what the max recommended cross wind numbers are? i.e. when you'd go find a better aligned strip. Doesn't seem much point in even attempting to practise unrealistic xwind circuits. I can't find any numbers anywhere in the manual.

Also the turbulance settings - does this relate to gust variation? i.e. winds @ 8mps, turb @ 2.5mps = effective wind 8mps gusting (plus or minus) 2.5mps?

Finally; ED any chance of a wind sock in the future? Even the Turbine jocks (especially the helos) would find it useful I'm sure.

Thanks

I haven't seen anything on cross wind speed limitations...

Take-off, anything up to a 30 knot (15m/s) crosswind can be considered safe. For landing, anything up to a 25 knot (13m/s) crosswind is considered safe.

The current incarnation of the DCS P-51 is very laterally unstable and not indicative of any tail wheel type I have flown. Normally in a tailwheel you have a very strong rudder and the nose reacts instantly to very small inputs. This makes predicting and correcting lateral control much easier IRL. Also, the DCS P-51 bounces harshly on all but the softest wheel landings. Since a wheel landing is likely what you will chose to do in a stiff crosswind, your job is now doubly difficult.

I think the DCS pilot would benefit immensely if there was a small amount head bobble in reaction to external forces. This (I'm guessing) could provide some of those lateral cues that pilots get through the seat.

They often seem to T/O with the ailerons very positively into wind, even for the T/O roll. I've just started trying this and I think it's helped a bit with the transition to flight bit? Likewise they seem to do this on the lndg roll as well.

Is this good or bad practise in a taildragger?

It's good. Helps keep the wind from grabbing your wing. There's probably a more complex aerodynamic reason as well, but, if there is, I don't know it. Regardless, aileron into the wind is standard.

They also emphasise touching down the upwind wheel first which makes sense but I haven't heard that before from anywhere.

Is that just nose gear aircraft?

Taildragger also.

As always thanks everyone.

Will keep practising and try to get a bit more consistent.

big ta.

The current incarnation of the DCS P-51 is very laterally unstable and not indicative of any tail wheel type I have flown. Normally in a tailwheel you have a very strong rudder and the nose reacts instantly to very small inputs. This makes predicting and correcting lateral control much easier IRL. Also, the DCS P-51 bounces harshly on all but the softest wheel landings. Since a wheel landing is likely what you will chose to do in a stiff crosswind, your job is now doubly difficult.

Cheers Smokin Hole...

I've spent about 10ish hours recently doing circuits at 11m/s and I can confirm it's bloody hard... but not impossible (at this speed anyway).

I crash regularly unless I'm anything other than 'on it'. I find T/O's are a touch easier than lndg but both require absolute concentration. I get by with acceptable landings & takeoffs most of the time, considering the conditions. I frequently need to use the brakes to stay straight with landings.

I can ace it only VERY occasionally, but it can be done more or less straight down the middle only very occasionally. BUT the margin for error is tiny! - It does feel like more rudder authority should be available. I agree. On T/O if you don't keep complete control of the nose then your off and upside down in no time.

Landings - yep the bounce is extremely vigorous - you need to really grease it to stay straight and on the deck, again the margin is tiny here - realistic? I don't know?

I reply because these two points you mention are exactly the killers for me when I'm not fully 'on it'. It can be done, but your right these two effects seem too uncontrollable. I can't see the point of practising beyond 11m/s.

 

Landings - yep the bounce is extremely vigorous - you need to really grease it to stay straight and on the deck, again the margin is tiny here - realistic? I don't know?

The bounce in the DCS P-51 is not at all realistic - I have a lot of taildragger time in planes from Cubs to DC-3's and wheel landings in real life, are NOTHING like what's portrayed in the DCS P-51

This in my opinion is the one thing ED hasn't come close to getting right yet.

The bounce in the DCS P-51 is not at all realistic - I have a lot of taildragger time in planes from Cubs to DC-3's and wheel landings in real life, are NOTHING like what's portrayed in the DCS P-51

 

This in my opinion is the one thing ED hasn't come close to getting right yet.

Any time in Mustangs? Any substantive facts to back up your allegation?

What they teach IRL is to crab. You nose into the wind to track centerline while keeping the plane level, then upon reaching ground effect, use rudder to plane lined up, then opposite aileron to counteract the roll caused by using your rudder.

Example: During my check-ride for my private pilot's license, I had to land in a 20kt crosswind on runway 17 with wind 090- basically directly a cross wind (True runway heading is 356*). I had a crab angle in the entire way down so my nose would be to the right of the runway, brought it down and pushed left rudder while rolling my ailerons to the right. ALWAYS touchdown with the upwind wheel first, so a gust doesn't flip your plane. Just look up crosswind landings on youtube.

Crosswind landings are extremely dangerous if not executed properly, especially so if it's gusting. They require a lot of work to become proficient. (Good thing I live in Kansas, get that every day!)

My advice for tailwheel: I have never flown a tailwheel IRL yet, but will soon. I know what it's best to keep your tailwheel off the ground as much as possible, as the plane would rather taxi backwards, which leads to ground loops.

I have flown the P-51 sim only a few times, but I agree with the excessive bounce. You wouldn't believe what kind of landings you can have and still keep the wheels on the ground the entire time.

Have fun with the sim! Maybe one of these days I will get mine working again :/

Nice one Ttaylor0024,

That's reassuring to hear i.e. (perhaps not surprisingly & as You'd hope) that's exactly what I'm findng works best here, crabbing down, (i have flown in real life, but only have 2.5hrs of basic intro stuff :( ) what you say is exactly what others here have recommended, as well.

Ground effect is I believe simulated in DCS but there's not a clear threshold you pass through (which I guess is realistic) so it's timing, technique and awareness I guess?

Keeping the tailwheel up is a very good point - I've not tried to deliberately delay the tail wheel touching down. When it does in DCS P51 you seem to be (probably quite accurately(?) be in a limbo of full rudder control versis 6 degrees max fixed tailwheel control, and so things can get a bit out of control at this point again (for me) for a short while during roll out. (Perhaps I should have the wheel unlocked until I decide to put the tail on the deck finally? anyone?)

Only when the plane fully settles can I relax and begin to believe that lndgs a in the bag.

Thanks for your thoughts

V

I actually just discussed the issue of a crosswind landing with tail-wheel planes with a fellow pilot friend tonight, he said that to control the plane after tail-wheel touchdown you use the breaks, not the rudder to steer.

Err ... is he a taildragger pilot?

Any time in Mustangs? Any substantive facts to back up your allegation?

Viper,

First and foremost, I want to clarify that I am NOT bashing this simulation in anyway. I have been a long time supporter of this line since the original LockOn series and have looked forward to and purchased every release and will continue to do so. What you guys have accomplished and brought to the home computer screen with DCS is nothing short of amazing!

My real life flying experience is based on over 27,000 hours of flight time in a vast number of aircraft many of them tail-draggers and heavy tail-draggers at that. While I have no personal experience in the P-51, it is an aircraft that I have been fascinated by for years and I have spent several years watching P-51's and talking with P-51 pilots, including the famous Bob Hover, several times over the years at the EAA AirVenture in Oshkosh Wisconsin, which I have attended every year for the last 15 - 18 years.

My comments come from my watching P-51's landings for years, and talking with P-51 pilots regarding their landing and other techniques flying the airplane. Based on that experience, along with my real life flying background, is why I believe the bounce seems a bit over exagerated to me in the simulation.

Having said that, I'm not saying that it's the "fault" of anything you guys are doing. Not at all, to me what this is probably most a factor of is not so much the computer 3D flight model you guys have designed, but rather how it translates to a 2 D computer screen and the resulting "feel" and the performance of the various computer platforms it is being operated on.

I hope this clarifies my original comment and I thank you guys for all the work you have put into this incredible simulation.

I almost forgot, I have 4 RC P-51's the biggest of which is a 50cc gas with an 86 inch wingspan - does that count? :D

I love this aircraft!

I totally agree, thanks for all the great work you guys have put into this amazing product!

Viper,

 

First and foremost, I want to clarify that I am NOT bashing this simulation in anyway...........

...........

I hope this clarifies my original comment and I thank you guys for all the work you have put into this incredible simulation.

Aye - I was not having a go at you. It was an honest request as I cannot take a persons subjective feelings to a Dev relating to a possible bug report. I need facts and figures lest I get scowled at :)

No problem Viper, I just wanted to be clear that the last thing I was trying to do was bash the work you guys have put into this.

Yo-Yo really nailed what I was trying to say, you can have the best 3D modeling in the world, but transfering the "feel", which is subjective to the user based on background experience, to a 2D computer screen will never be perfect - although, I have to admit, you guys have come about as close as you can get :D

Thanks again

Looks a little bouncy to me. Actually it looks a lot like some of my landings? ;)

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I was thinking that wasn't such a big bounce, and then... ! Holy sheet! Ouch!!!

Good skills keeping the prop out of the muck with a wheel locked solid.

Nice post!

Looks a little bouncy to me. Actually it looks a lot like some of my landings? ;)

Miss Helen hit the Duxford Bump there as shown in that footage. Look closely and you can actually see the grass mound - nasty!

Watch Nooky Booky bounce a three-pointer in this vid:

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I actually just discussed the issue of a crosswind landing with tail-wheel planes with a fellow pilot friend tonight, he said that to control the plane after tail-wheel touchdown you use the breaks, not the rudder to steer.

I've been using the brakes on lndg roll as the method of last resort i.e when the nose has gone beyond rudder control - and I have found judicious use of assymetric braking does do the trick, especially in combination with rudder / tailwheel inputs - even quite strong braking seems manageable, so long as I'm 'pulling' the tail down hard onto the deck at the same time - I come to a bit of a juddering halt (if i don't ease off) with an amount of zig-zagging, but I can regain and keep control of the nose this way and don't get even close to a prop strike so long as I stay awake.

I'll try this NOT as the last resort and see how I get on, the brakes do seem to have a wide range of effectiveness using pedals anyway. Thanks Ttaylor0024.

Re my earlier post about excessive bounce at touch down (I'm still running 1.2), I think I'm being inconsistent with my technique / skills whatever - I was reviewing a vid and half the time I seem to be 'putting it down' too early, when I'm a touch too high still. And as a result I often 'drop it' the last foot or so & that's bound to force the tail down / nose up on touchdown - So think this might be me?

The level of fine control in this sim is truly awesome! And I'm still crepe at it! But it's fun exploring the depths.