Magnetic Brake Tim ... again

I have my troubles with the trimming system of the DCS Gazelle - there are already a couple of bug reports and/or other discussions revolving these mechanics.

Today something occured to me that I haven't noticed before consciously: if you press mag.trim, the AP keeps the helo in the attitude it had in that very moment. Additionally, the cyclic forces are also set so that the "center" matches the desired attitude. (I had my troubles with that already documented ...) But now I noticed, that this "desired attitude" and matching stick position can not be done manually - only with AP magic!

Example:

I slowly put the helo into a 45 deg. bank by applying tiny stick inputs (everything else would cause death by PIO ...). Once arrived at 45 deg. I press mag.brake trim. The 45 bank attitude is now the APs desired attitude and it keeps the helo steady in that attitude. Also, the stick forces move the stick a good amount (about 40%?) towards the side of bank. Now you can fly hands free - the 40ish% stick position appears to match the established banking angle of 45 deg.

Now try that without trim, just free hands! I bet, you'll die.:D (I know, I did. Repeatedly.).

If you just manually deflect the stick 40% and keep it there, the helo banks ... and banks ... rolls, does a barrel roll and eventually spirals into the ground.

edit:

Tested on New Caucasus, 2.5 + latest hot fix, using G940 FFB stick with FFB enabled in the options. No curves, neither in DCS options, nor in Gazelle special options.

Ok, this is not a bug, this is a feature of the AP. We have implemented one of the later AP modes that are set through magnetic trim. It is correct that the magnetic trim holds the additude when used. There is a certain way how the french pilots do use the helicopter. I can not go into to much detail, but they use the magnetic break constantly in normal flight in turns.

Why? Less workload.

If we would have used the latest AP mode oof the magnetic trim it would also hold your yaw at a desired position till you reach a certain speed, then it will cancel the yaw hold totally.

I do not want to go into to much details about the latest real life AP cause we are not inculding it or virtual pilots would have less fun flying her, cause it would get even easier.

Always remember, it is a combat helicopter and you want to keep combat machines as simple and straight forward as possible.

Not sure if I got my point across properly here. I am not questioning the AP holding the attitude of the helo. But I am questioning why I can not do exact the same manually.

The mag.brake trim holds the cyclic in a certain position and also keeps the helo's attitude. The position of the cyclic obvously is meant to match the helo's attitude.

My understanding is that the AP keeps the helo in the trimmed attitude and just then sets the cyclic position to match that attitude. (as opposed for example in the huey, where the trim sets the cyclic and the helo follows the stick input).

But my issue now is: if I try to replicate that maneuvre manually, it does not work. If I deflect the cyclic exactly as the AP would, the helo just keeps rolling. It will not settle anywhere near the same attitude as if the AP would be in charge.

Maybe I post a track later to illustrate this a bit more.

edit:

attached track. At first I entered a left hand turn, then clicked mag.trim. Watch the controls indicator - the moment I clicked trim, the cyclick jumps violently to about ~50% left. Then I fly hands-free - the AP performs a nice turn.

Later, I add right cyclic input to level out the helo again. Once level, I click trim again (controls indicator jumps back to neutral). Then I try a manual turn by deflecting the cyclic by hand to - not even - 40% left, without AP support at all. Result: barrel roll into the ground ...

So, how can the AP keep the helo stable at 50% stick input and I can't?

ap1.trk

So whenever I trim on either the MSFFB2 or G940 the stick will jump to another position (based on making the trimmed position center??), is this right? Shouldn't it work exactly like every other helicopter and just reset the spring forces to the new position?

Any trim system that forcefully jumps the stick to a new position would be dangerous in flight. It really feels to me like the non FFB trim method hasn't been exorcised.

Pls Hlp and sorry for hijacking this thread.

So whenever I trim on either the MSFFB2 or G940 the stick will jump to another position (based on making the trimmed position center??), is this right? Shouldn't it work exactly like every other helicopter and just reset the spring forces to the new position?

 

Any trim system that forcefully jumps the stick to a new position would be dangerous in flight. It really feels to me like the non FFB trim method hasn't been exorcised.

 

Pls Hlp and sorry for hijacking this thread.

This unintuitive behaviour is probably better discussed here: https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=196099

Had the same issue, I "fixed" it by turning FFB off (sidewinder ffb2), it seems to be broken.

With it off it handles as expected, made mag trim more annoying to use but worth it.

Ok, this is not a bug, this is a feature of the AP. We have implemented one of the later AP modes that are set through magnetic trim. It is correct that the magnetic trim holds the additude when used. There is a certain way how the french pilots do use the helicopter. I can not go into to much detail, but they use the magnetic break constantly in normal flight in turns.

Why? Less workload.

If we would have used the latest AP mode oof the magnetic trim it would also hold your yaw at a desired position till you reach a certain speed, then it will cancel the yaw hold totally.

 

I do not want to go into to much details about the latest real life AP cause we are not inculding it or virtual pilots would have less fun flying her, cause it would get even easier.

 

Always remember, it is a combat helicopter and you want to keep combat machines as simple and straight forward as possible.

Thank you for sharing this details with us, it is always very interesting to know how the pilotes are flying the Gazelle in real life.

That being said I wish you could include as much as possible all the features of the Gazelle into the simulator.

The definition of fun is very much a matter of personal taste to my opinion. And concerning a simulator having as much as possible all the systems and features available in order to learn how to use them is what I enjoy the most, again to my personal opinion.

It would be much appreciated if you could reconsider your decision, please. :)