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air ground attack precision


blast

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Hi guys,

 

 

I would like to know if you have issues with the CCIP and/or CCRP mode?

 

From what i see, the CCRP with mk82 is not very accurate.

And the rockets + canon reticle must be adjusted above the target to aim correctly.

 

What is you experience with it?


Edited by blast
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I've found it to be accurate enough, but it needs to be used within the right parameters to work.

 

 

From the manual (bold mine, with the mistakes I make the most):

 

CCRP (flat):

 

 

 

1. Minimum altitude should be 2000 feet AGL and speed above 350 KIAS.

2. Fly in a slight dive towards your target. It shouldn’t be more than 15º.

3. Place the CCRP piper over your target

4. Click on the AG DESIGNATE button (refer to HOTAS title in Chapter 1).

5. Pull up and resume level flight.

6. The target cross will remain over the target.

7. Fly towards the target.

8. When you are 15 seconds from the release point, the release cue will appear.

9. Press the trigger as soon as you see the release cue. Keep the trigger pressed while the cue is visible.

10. The bombs will be released automatically when the cue cross the CCRP piper.

11. The system will clear the target designation as soon as the bombs have been released.

 

 

CCRP (dive):

 

 

1. Level start. ~ 350 kias. Idle thrust when diving.

2. Target designation. Trigger held down. Follow guidance cues.

3. Start of pull up. Follow guidance cues.

 

4. Bomb release.

5. Bomb path.

6. Breakaway. Thrust as required.

 

 

CCIP (bombs):

 

 

 

1. Upon activating the CCIP, raise the seat so your downwards view is better

2. For diving runs minimum altitude should be 1500 feet AGL. 3000 AGL feet is better, especially if you are going to do a high angle dive.

3. Minimum indicated airspeed should be 400 KIAS.

4. The CCIP pipper will appear at the bottom of the HUD.

5. When nearing your target, fly in a dive. The steeper the dive the better. 20º to 25º dives are very precise.

6. Check the safe altitude cue position.

7. Press the trigger to release the bombs when the CCIP piper is over your target

8. Pull up.

9. DO NOT release the bombs if the safe altitude cue intersects the FPM or is above it.

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Hi Blast,

 

 

Some people get decent results with CCRP but at the end of the day I would carry mk 82, etc for attacking large targets like buildings and bridges. If you're trying to kill vehicles stick with CCIP weapons--you'll be pleasantly surprised by how effective the Mirage is when using cluster bombs and Mk 82 Snake Eye against vehicles

 

 

Reference Lucas's excellent guide above or read a missive I wrote about the Mirage's CCIP capabilities (which was a very pleasant surprise) here:

 

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=208146

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  • 1 month later...

CCIP (bombs):

 

 

 

1. Upon activating the CCIP, raise the seat so your downwards view is better

2. For diving runs minimum altitude should be 1500 feet AGL. 3000 AGL feet is better, especially if you are going to do a high angle dive.

3. Minimum indicated airspeed should be 400 KIAS.

4. The CCIP pipper will appear at the bottom of the HUD.

5. When nearing your target, fly in a dive. The steeper the dive the better. 20º to 25º dives are very precise.

6. Check the safe altitude cue position.

7. Press the trigger to release the bombs when the CCIP piper is over your target

8. Pull up.

9. DO NOT release the bombs if the safe altitude cue intersects the FPM or is above it.

 

I've tried this but usually MK82SE fall short, at least when trying to hit a single target.

I dont get having the CCIP piper if it doesnt calculate the correct impact point.

 

Does the wind affect the impact point?

Does the QFE "alignement" affect the calculation? ( I think not since using the radar altimeter ).

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For the record, IRL putting dumb bombs within 20m/ 70ft (Mirage or F-16) of the target is a good run.

But in DCS a Mk-82(S) won’t do much damage at that distance.:music_whistling:

 

A direct hit on vehicle with dumb bomb is lucky. This why they use GBU-XX these days...


Edited by jojo

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For the record, IRL putting dumb bombs within 20m/ 70ft (Mirage or F-16) of the target is a good run.

But in DCS a Mk-82(S) won’t do much damage at that distance.:music_whistling:

 

A direct hit on vehicle with dumb bomb is lucky. This why they use GBU-XX these days...

 

YesI know but it seems like I always fall short at about 50 mt.

Less if the dive speed is about 300 ias.

 

It seems like the piper is setted in a wrong "position" like the impact point is calculated at the wrong altitude.

I cant say its a bug but I got the impression something has to be set in the right way before the dive.

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Jojo, try to designate in CCRP anything (road intersection) and then fly over and watch the parallax of your cross on the ground. Sure when you are at a dive angle of 10-20 degrees and you put pipper on something and designate everything looks correct in that moment but really designated spot is beyond underground equal to dive angle and ~50m beyond. It can be seen easily as you fly over that designated point.

 

Designate where road center lines meet at T intersection. Looks good! No, wait, let's fly over and watch. Hmm, not so close after all.

 

This is TAS so only sources of error are INU pitch attitude, radar elevation angle, and radar ranging. Looks like a problem of range distance.

Screen_180715_183759.png.f3960738bb83ba121f489efbd2c214f1.png

Screen_180715_183811.png.c68d0707f7f0600ad9cc6b11be6e551e.png

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Yes, I know there is a parallax problem.

 

Waiting for the fix, the work around is to designate with the top of the diamond rather than the centre.

*

 

I dive between 20° and 30° to designate and release during pull up, like we can see in RL video.

They don’t seem to practice CCRP flat IRL.

 

Dive speed: the slower you are, the slower and less accurate are your bombs.

 

 

*forget that, CCRP seems to work fine for ranging with the centre of the diamond.

 

The remaining issue is that this will with salvo release: this is the impact point of the first bomb rather than the middle of salvo.

 

NB = 2 / DIST = 1/2 (10m/ 20m) setting on PPA will help to limit ranging problem.

 

The DIST setting seems to actually work.

 

You have to be really accurate with your designation point and stay wing level after.


Edited by jojo

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So even in CCIP ... is the radar altimeter bugged?

 

No I was discussing CCRP.

 

But I’m re-doing some test to check.

By the way, even in CCIP you should use TAS. RS is supposed to be back up mode and is only reliable over flat surface.

 

 

Joined a CCRP & CCPI track Vs a truck using TAS ranging.

 

 

I agree the RS mode seems to hit long in CCPI.

M-2000C CCRP test.trk

M-2000C CCPI test.trk


Edited by jojo

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CCIP is the most accurate form of bombing. but its also the most dangerous.

dive bombers are easy to see and engage.

 

CCRP is the least accurate but also the safest for the plane. you fly above MANPADS and AAA

 

one way to increase CCRP accuracy without decreasing its safety to much, is to CCRP from very low altitude.

ie 50ft instead of 15000ft.

 

and at 50ft you can terrain mask to hide from anyone shooting at you.

 

but the mk82 you drop will kill you if you drop them at 50ft.

 

so they invented bomb retardation. the snake eye.

 

try CCRP bombing from 50ft using a ripple of snakeyes. using terrain to mask your approach and egress.

 

you are supposed to flash over them and release before they even know you are there.

 

you just have to look at most of the Vietnam war footage. this is the tactic they use in all the bomb video. snakeyes and napalm CCRP dropped on a treeline from 50ft.

 

snake and nape baby. blow up anyone in the open and suffocate with carbon monoxide, anyone in hard cover. you cant run and you cant hide.

 

you can CCIP with snakeyes but why would you want to?

a slick mk82 is just as accurate and you can drop it from higher, which is safer.

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CCIP is the most accurate form of bombing. but its also the most dangerous.

dive bombers are easy to see and engage.

 

CCRP is the least accurate but also the safest for the plane. you fly above MANPADS and AAA

 

one way to increase CCRP accuracy without decreasing its safety to much, is to CCRP from very low altitude.

ie 50ft instead of 15000ft.

 

and at 50ft you can terrain mask to hide from anyone shooting at you.

 

but the mk82 you drop will kill you if you drop them at 50ft.

 

so they invented bomb retardation. the snake eye.

 

try CCRP bombing from 50ft using a ripple of snakeyes. using terrain to mask your approach and egress.

 

you are supposed to flash over them and release before they even know you are there.

 

you just have to look at most of the Vietnam war footage. this is the tactic they use in all the bomb video. snakeyes and napalm CCRP dropped on a treeline from 50ft.

 

snake and nape baby. blow up anyone in the open and suffocate with carbon monoxide, anyone in hard cover. you cant run and you cant hide.

 

you can CCIP with snakeyes but why would you want to?

a slick mk82 is just as accurate and you can drop it from higher, which is safer.

 

I bet you don't even have the module, or you didn't try AG with it. Isn't it ? :music_whistling:

 

Mk-82 = CCRP

Mk-82S = CCIP

 

You don't have the choice on M-2000C.


Edited by jojo

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the mirage is not the only aircraft to use the mk82 and the snakeye. so airframe does not really matter.

my Vietnam example was thundercheifs and phantoms which none of us own.

but it does work in the harrier and the a10c. although the a10c is a bit slow for low fast CCRP.

 

 

those options for mirage do not fill me with confidence though. i can see why you cant hit anything. in every other plane i would do it the opposite way round.

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the mirage is not the only aircraft to use the mk82 and the snakeye. so airframe does not really matter.

my Vietnam example was thundercheifs and phantoms which none of us own.

but it does work in the harrier and the a10c. although the a10c is a bit slow for low fast CCRP.

 

 

those options for mirage do not fill me with confidence though. i can see why you cant hit anything. in every other plane i would do it the opposite way round.

 

You are in the wrong thread. This is Razbam/ Mirage 2000 thread. The question was about Mirage 2000 bombing accuracy.

 

So "use the AV-8B" isn't an answer.

 

And yea, Mirage 2000C RDI is a fighter, AG is secondary mission, and the plane isn't suited to AG in heavily defended airspace. French Air Force uses Mirage 2000D for that purpose (not available either).

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The designator point being the top of the diamond has been this way since 2015.

 

Yep, but look at my track form previous page.

It's doing fine with the centre. When I designated with the top of the diamond it was hitting short !

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Yes, I know there is a parallax problem.

 

Waiting for the fix, the work around is to designate with the top of the diamond rather than the centre.

*

 

*forget that, CCRP seems to work fine for ranging with the centre of the diamond.

 

Workaround is really poor. CCRP does not at all work fine regardless of where you aim to designate. Designated point happens along the diamond center line of sight but well beyond it in range. CCRP math seems to release toward the designated point very accurately but the problem is that designated point is not at the intersection of the radar LOS and the hard surface. Math good, point wrong.

 

And yeah center stick. I can't believe the interval counter goes up to 800m. Is that the total length of stick instead? That makes more sense than the inter-bomb interval. Because 10m is kinda too big for inter and 800m is crazy impossible huge for inter as well. Also good chance it should auto inc/dec when held down.

 

So an intentional offset only works for a narrow subset of conditions.

 

Also designated point generated changes if you adjust baro altimeter pressure knob which makes no sense since offset position is only a function of depression angle and slant.

 

The designator point being the top of the diamond has been this way since 2015.

 

No, it's center. If you do minimal dive change between designation and release then it tends to hit near the designated point because the bomb tends to fly close to the intended target on the way to the subterranean designated point. But if you do anything else all bets are off.

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Yesterday I've made several CCIP tries.

I think I've found a way to be precise but I'm not fully convinced yet.

 

- steep dive many KMs before reaching target

- approach 400-500 ft altitude at about 400 ias

- fly level on top of the target ( this is almost mandatory!)

- pickle over target and mantain level for at least 1 sec ( break away early ruins the mk82 trajectory)

- break away

 

with a ripple of 2 and 10mt spacing you can kill a single target 90% times

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Workaround is really poor. CCRP does not at all work fine regardless of where you aim to designate. Designated point happens along the diamond center line of sight but well beyond it in range. CCRP math seems to release toward the designated point very accurately but the problem is that designated point is not at the intersection of the radar LOS and the hard surface. Math good, point wrong.

 

And yeah center stick. I can't believe the interval counter goes up to 800m. Is that the total length of stick instead? That makes more sense than the inter-bomb interval. Because 10m is kinda too big for inter and 800m is crazy impossible huge for inter as well. Also good chance it should auto inc/dec when held down.

 

So an intentional offset only works for a narrow subset of conditions.

 

Also designated point generated changes if you adjust baro altimeter pressure knob which makes no sense since offset position is only a function of depression angle and slant.

 

 

 

No, it's center. If you do minimal dive change between designation and release then it tends to hit near the designated point because the bomb tends to fly close to the intended target on the way to the subterranean designated point. But if you do anything else all bets are off.

 

 

My mistake for the DIST, it was 10 x 10m = 100m :doh:

It should be bomb spacing, but after more testing it isn't reliable yet.

 

 

I'm completely lost with your offset story.

I was testing direct CCRP, not offset.

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It seems I'm doing fine with designation in dive below 6km slant range.

 

Designation: point is on target, maybe slightly high.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=190108&stc=1&d=1531823162

 

NB = 4/ DIST = 1 (10m).

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=190109&stc=1&d=1531823162

 

First impact is spot on, at least on the very good side of the kind of CEP you can expect with this delivery mode, even IRL.

 

 

DIST: my assessment is that impact points aren't 10m wide of each others.

 

Track included.

M-2000C CCRP test 3.trk

Screen_180717_141724.thumb.png.9625a8c7b25fcacd19cb1783bb12f8b8.png

Screen_180717_141513.thumb.png.2859477198da3b31f97aff70bfd7fabf.png

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This is some narrow delivery method which disguises the bug. The system designates the wrong location. This is true even if bombs never leave the airplane. What this steep dive and release in similar dive does is make red and green lines close together so the issue is hidden. Yes I found that some deliveries mask this issue too.

 

I think because baro pressure knob on altimeter has an effect on solution I can "dial away" this bug and see if CCRP (direct) is accurate when designated point is returned to surface.

 

By distance value I wonder if it is supposed to work a different way than the usual bomb spacing. Most airplanes use "option 2" definition but what confuses me about Mirage and maybe they use "option 1" concept is the values.

 

In Mirage you can pick 01, 02, 03,...79,80x10m value or 10m through 800m in 10m increments. But what case in the world would use the 800m setting or anywhere close to that? With cluster bombs 100m maybe. Illumination flares? Nuclear weapons? What makes sense for such huge numbers? Even minimum 10m is still not extremely dense. Where is 5m? 3m? 15m? 25m? Who is using the 61x10m setting?!

 

Instead if Mirage uses concept "option 1" then life makes more sense. 10 cluster bombs over total length 800m is only 89m spacing which is useful. Delivering four bombs on 20m total length is 6.7m spacing. These are useful spacing values.

 

I guess there is also "option 3" concept which that 01...80 is spacing but there is omitted a decimal point so it is 0.1x10m through 8.0x10m spacing. But this sounds wrong because why have X.X and then have painted "x10" after? It's silly.

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Yesterday I've made several CCIP tries.

I think I've found a way to be precise but I'm not fully convinced yet.

 

- steep dive many KMs before reaching target

- approach 400-500 ft altitude at about 400 ias

- fly level on top of the target ( this is almost mandatory!)

- pickle over target and mantain level for at least 1 sec ( break away early ruins the mk82 trajectory)

- break away

 

with a ripple of 2 and 10mt spacing you can kill a single target 90% times

 

good answer. turn CCIP into CCRP

just like I was saying :)

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My direct CCRP delivery method isn't narrow.

This is how FAF use it. I already posted several times a video of Mirage 2000N CCRP release at Red Flag.

I tested between 20 and 40 degrees dive. I will test with 10 degrees dive.

But shallow dive increase the effect of designation error.

 

You are supposed to designate in dive.

I provided track over flat terrain and mountains.

 

I didn't mess with altimeter setting, but I will test.

If the system use baro altitude for height over target this is a bug, it should use INS altitude (updated on radar ranging).

 

CCRP would be used for attack from medium/ high altitude, or with pop up profile.

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