Love the G940...With FFB OFF

I know many are considering the huge investment in the G940 and probably can't get enough information on the setup. I like mine a lot. It is well-constructed and precise. The FFB feature just might save my ham-fisted arse in IL2 (no more panic driven Spit snap-rolls). It has postponed the onset of arthritis caused by continuous forward stick in Rise of Flight. I no longer have to be bathed in Saitek blue light. But after eight relentless hours of trying to get a usable trim with DCS I've decided to disable FFB in the producer config file. It still flies better than the Saitek that way. The spring without FFB is very smooth, natural, and adjustable. I love the pre 1.01 trim and am comfortable with it. One negative is a small amount of undampened play around neutral. For some, that alone might be a deal breaker. But I think I'll stick it out for another week or two. Sorry for the short post but my baby just woke up. Time to work.

REVISION:

FFB Works better for me with the following settings:

Logitech FFB properties: All default except bottom Centering Spring Slider at 20 % and "Enable Centering Sping in FFB Games" is CHECKED (This has a slight negative effect with DCS but allows good control of planes in IL2 and RoF.)

Logitech DCS profile axis properities: Default except Sensitivity at 50%

DCS Controller settings (in-game options): Axis default, ie, no curves. FFB 100%.

I hear ya. Right now I'm really on the fence. I really like the G940 overall, but the FFB implementation in DCS:BS is just not quite right. Perhaps the most frustrating thing is how *close* to right it is. If it was just flat-out broken, I'd ignore it and get on with my simming; but it's so intriguingly close to working that I always end up wasting time every evening with more tweaking. Ultimately, I'm convinced there needs to be a patch for the following items.

1. Need the ability to detach rudder from trim ops in FFB mode.

2. Need to program out the center "play" in the joystick in FFB mode.

3. Need to ensure that after locking in the trim, that I can safely remove my hand from the control without affecting the aircraft (assuming the optical sensor is covered).

In other words, if I am in steady flight or a steady hover and I tap/release the trim button without moving any of the other controls, it should introduce absolutely no *new* motion in my aircraft; and I should be able to remove my hands from the controls and remain in exactly the attitude I set. This would then pretty much mirror the experience I had on my non-FFB stick when properly using the 1.01 style trim (with the exception, of course, of the need to physically re-center the controls before removing my hand).

As for Logitech, I would love to see them do a few things as well.

1. Give us the ability to turn off the optical sensor in the profile.

2. Give us the ability to change the force settings in the profile (rather than just globally).

3. Give us the ability to assign commands to a button release event.

4. Give us more advanced scripting capabilities.

5. Give us the ability to eliminate/override the central "play" in the joystick for non-FFB games, or for legacy FFB games that didn't instrument whatever code it is that this stick requires to eliminate it.

.....One negative is a small amount of undampened play around neutral. For some, that alone might be a deal breaker......

That's a Real Pity. Primary reason my Saiteks found their way back to the Factory.....Definite Ball-Buster.

Ta for the Heads-Up :)

... Perhaps the most frustrating thing is how *close* to right it is.

@ericinexile

come on, it's not that worse. sure, it is taking some time to find a good setup. the trim hold is definitely working on the g940, better than with any other FFB joystick that is available on the market nowadays. you can trim and let go of the stick during route-mode, shkval targeting, hovering etc., it works but not 100% perfectly. since the g940 is a fresh system with partly absolute new and improved features, i think patience is the key for now. logitech_mark stated in the logitech forums that they will work together with developers for special/better integration of the system and i think that it is no coincidence that we already have an A-10 lookalike throttle on the desk and an A-10 warthog simulation coming up... :smilewink:

@ddahlstrom

i have an addition (a super secret wish) for your patchlist:

4. integration of LED switching of the P1-P8 buttons on the throttle for visual feedback of the button states in the cockpit

ohh ED please please pretty please...

@ericinexile

 

come on, it's not that worse. sure, it is taking some time to find a good setup. the trim hold is definitely working on the g940, better than with any other FFB joystick that is available on the market nowadays. you can trim and let go of the stick during route-mode, shkval targeting, hovering etc., it works but not 100% perfectly. since the g940 is a fresh system with partly absolute new and improved features, i think patience is the key for now. logitech_mark stated in the logitech forums that they will work together with developers for special/better integration of the system and i think that it is no coincidence that we already have an A-10 lookalike throttle on the desk and an A-10 warthog simulation coming up... :smilewink:

 

@ddahlstrom

 

i have an addition (a super secret wish) for your patchlist:

 

4. integration of LED switching of the P1-P8 buttons on the throttle for visual feedback of the button states in the cockpit

 

ohh ED please please pretty please...

Alec,

I've read all of your posts as well as those of others. I was once a fence sitter watching this discussion take place and eventually took the dive based on positive comments. But, I just spent all night last night trying every possible combination of springs, dampeners, strength, curves, FD On/Off, and throwing spaghetti against the wall to see if it would stick. The trim does in fact work so-so until I accelerate past about 220. Then letting go of the (taped) stick will result in a pitch up and turn to the right as the feedback mechanism doesn't seem to want to hold the stick in the trimmed position.

Hey, It could be that I have a bad stick. And that's a question for the fence-sitters: Are these complaints due to the obsessive compulsive nature of the reviewer?, is it a flawed stick?, is it incompatible implementation on the part of ED?, or Logitech? Don't know. Don't care. The stick works as well as the Saitek in spring (or non-FFB) mode so for those who need a HOTAS this is still a doable choice. But for me. I still don't know. It's very cool in IL2 and that alone may entice me into keeping it.

@ericinexile

first, if this is the case, i didn't mean to offend you in any way (excuse my english...).

i'm still flying with the settings i posted on the guide and never run into the problem you desribed. even at speeds higher than 220...

i got used to release the stick very carefully after a trim for hover, autopilot speedup or stabilizing and nothing bad happens anymore.

what force setting in BS-options did you set?

Alec,

 

The trim does in fact work so-so until I accelerate past about 220. Then letting go of the (taped) stick will result in a pitch up and turn to the right as the feedback mechanism doesn't seem to want to hold the stick in the trimmed position.

The turn to the right it most likely an issue with the rudder logic. Try this. Display the control indicator (RCtrl-Enter), then give some rudder input and hold it steady. Observe the position of the rudder. Now click and release trim. What will happen is that the rudder position will immediately move, and you will experience this as a jerk to the right or left. What it's actually doing is shifting your currently held rudder position to the center. The trick (and it's definitely not a full solution), is to try to time your action of trimming and centering the pedals to happen synchronously. If you can manage to do this, the right/left jerking sensation should be mostly eliminated. In practice, what I've found seems to work best is to press trim, then center the pedals, then release trim--and to do this all in one smooth and quick action. It's not perfect, but seems to minimize the left/right jerking around. Note that some folks advise using the Z and/or X keys between the trim press and release, since this acts to recover absolute center on the pedals. In practice however, I've found this doesn't always work reliably and that you often need to jiggle the pedals around after doing it, just causing another kind of unwanted motion. Anyway, give these things a try, and see what you like.

As far as the pitch up/down kick after trim, I definitely experience this too. No doubt about it. Another user on the forum here has suggested setting Damper Effects and Overall Effects to 20%, which does help. Unfortunately, the cost of this is having to set a global property on your stick that eliminates almost all sensation of force. It also doesn't completely solve the problem, though it does seem to reduce it. So I just leave the forces at 100% and live with it.

Finally, if you find it difficult to precisely control rudder heading, I find that going into the Axis control in DCS and checking the Slider checkbox (to change the axis to a slider) seems to improve my control. You might want to give that a try. Note that elsewhere I advised keeping the axis and changing the curve to 50%, but have since found side effects to this that I don't like.

@ericinexile

 

first, if this is the case, i didn't mean to offend you in any way (excuse my english...).

 

i'm still flying with the settings i posted on the guide and never run into the problem you desribed. even at speeds higher than 220...

i got used to release the stick very carefully after a trim for hover, autopilot speedup or stabilizing and nothing bad happens anymore.

 

what force setting in BS-options did you set?

Alec,

No offense taken. Just the opposite in fact as you've been helpful.

ddalstrom,

The rudder thing I have pretty well down pat. The original trim logic (both cyclic and anti-torque) never bothered me. The point is that I can look at the in-game cyclic (or the Shift-Enter window) and see the stick move right and aft when I let go after trimming (with FFB ON). This does not happen with the non-FFB setting. I think I could overcome this by fully complying with Alec's suggestions in other posts. But that would mean changing my Global settings every time I play IL2, RoF, FSX, ect. And if I do that the stick becomes work and I should get paid to use it. Part of my concern is that that stick is not quite because I seem to be having issues that others are not (primarily a big sloppy dead-zone and that tendancy not to hold the trim position). Otherwise I love the stick and I even like the non-FFB trim implementation in DCS.

Well another g940 thread i have to subscribe to. Hopefully i dont need this information in the future as in Logitech found the problem and fixed it.

 

The point is that I can look at the in-game cyclic (or the Shift-Enter window) and see the stick move right and aft when I let go after trimming (with FFB ON). This does not happen with the non-FFB setting.

 

ahhh, sorry, now i understand completely what you mean.

well, this is the exact description of the main FFB problem in black shark. the whole reason why i started all my threads (beginning with the saitek evo force, fiddling for days, nearly smashing it on the wall, finally selling it ).

with the g940 guide i described a way only to -> minimize <- this problem as close as possible without giving up on low sensitivity. luckily, the g940 has much more tweaking capabilities than a normal joystick.

a REAL solution can only provided by ED!

check this one:

try a negative curvature setting in bs options on both axis X Y (start with -10), in FF TUNE set trimmer force to 100. in the logitech-profiler set sensitivity to default or 100%.

you'll see how the precision of the trimmed position (check indicator with ctrl-enter) improves, while sensivity of the ka-50 goes up (logically, but too much, unfortunately).

the problem is - lowering sensitivity - widens the "force window" around the user-intended trim position and the stick has more "play" to return to the center or the direction of lesser resistance.

oops, double post...

Alec,

 

And if I do that the stick becomes work and I should get paid to use it.

LOL, I hear you on wanting to get paid to use this thing. I think that the bottom line is that every mode is a compromise right now. For me, at the moment (and this might change by sun-up), I'm calling it like this.

1. Non-FFB using the old 1.00 style trim works with the G940, but I don't personally care for it. The slop really kills it for me because the trim lock is timer based in this style, and the slop prevents you from consistently pinning down center, so I tend to bounce around a lot. On a non-FFB stick, like my old X36, it was ok, but I recall when the new center-based trim came out with 1.01, I liked it much better and it worked perfectly on my old non FFB Saitek.

2. Non-FFB using the newer 1.01 style trim also works with the G940, and I find it is better overall than the 1.00 style, BUT--once again, slop kills it. It is better than the 1.00 style because when it works you know your controls are indeed centered and you don't bounce around as much (if at all). The problem is that the slop can make you work to find that center, and it's not that hard to get the aircraft locked up while you jiggle the stick around looking for it. A larger deadzone might help, but I hate deadzones.

3. That leaves FFB mode. Basically, I am currently concluding that it is the best of the three options on the G940 and worth practicing with and getting used to. Trim lock is still not tight due to slop (though slop seems to be more controlled in FFB mode), rudder centering is a pain, and overall it is less precise than the 1.01 trim mode on my non-FFB Saitek, but right now it seems the most usable option for me on the G940. Note that I've gone through all the threads, and tried all the tricks and tweaks, but have found that for me, using the default settings are pretty much as good as anything else. If you're up to experimenting, do it, but don't count on finding any magic.

Note that while you can probably tell I'm a bit disappointed here, the G940 is a very young product, and everyone should know that early adopters often have to pay a price in patience while the kinks in their tech get addressed. Personally, I really like having FFB on my desk again (after having to retire my trusty old gameport based MS FFB Pro years ago), and trust that these bugs will be dealt with in due time.

glimpse of hope:

quote from GGTharos Moderator/ED Testers Team:

"I have copied this to the beta board, just FYI. I'm sure the devs will look into it."

or call my new phone number: 911-G940FFBTRIM (5,99 $ per minute) :D

This is also mentioned on the Logitech forum from a Logitech rep. To paraphrase:

There is no "deadzone" on the G940 (see, it was our imagination). The center slop we experience is due to the fact that the full capabilities of the G940 are not yet addressed by game developers. That's believable enough.

We are trying to tweak a piece of equipment that is not supported by the games we play. It's a bit like trying to use TrackIR with FS98. Now the more scary part of that discussion is overheating sticks. I really don't want my expensive new toy to burn my house down.

As for my non-FFB settings. I use the Centering Spring at 50%. (I also have the spring enabled for FFB games and that seems to work well enough. It also means I don't need to change setting from game to game. It does FEEL less precise but my test of precision is to hover with ALL dampeners off. And I do this much better with this stick...even though it FEELS "sloppier".

Alec,

You mentioned Sensitivity and I had never thought to play with that other than your suggested "0" (low). My latest setup is: EVERYTHING--Logitech and DCS--DEFAULT, except Axis Sensitivity in the Logitech Profiler. That is set at 50 %. Now FFB trim works fine. 100 % works also but, as you stated, it's very sensitive. 50 is a nice balance and very controllable.

Another change I've made since this post is adjust the bottom Centering Spring slider to 20 % and check "Enable Centering Spring in FFB Games". This has a slight negative effect with DCS but allows better control of planes in IL2. The negative effect in DCS is a slight return to my original complaint but the trim holds well enough at high speed to allow the autopilot to fly a route or hold a heading and speed--an acceptable balance for me. If DCS is your only sim then its best to have the box unchecked.

@ericinexile

thanks for the suggestions. will give it a try, i'm also back to "field testing". :smilewink:

with more training in flying the BS, i'm currently using 100 in FF TUNE and a negative curvature of 25 of the X and Y axis. helps to narrow the window of FFB-"play" around the targeted trim-position with low sensitivity in logitech profiler.

never ending story...:smartass: