DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

[jojo]

I said the MiG 21 has some unique advantages, even as a 3rd Gen+ fighter, against the M2000C which it does not have against the other 4th gen aircraft in the sim.

 

Besides flare numbers and more crappy missiles the 21 has no advantages.

It won't be easier than Vs F-15.

 

If the Mirage has fewer missile than F-15, it's more nervous and thus more dangerous for you in the merge.

 

A proficient Mirage pilot will have first shoot opportunity...

[jojo]

Can be leave the toxic fanboying to some other thread and go back to discussing the Technical specifications please?

 

Does anybody happen to know anything on the ECM resistance of the Radar and the general quality of ECM on the Mirage?

 

This kind of stuff is very secret, and anyway it is simplified in combat sims, generally only noise jamming...

[Ultra]

Size has little bearing on rcs. I doubt the mirage will be any different compared to other fighters.

 

Too bad. I'm trying to think of other advantages of small size... any come to mind?

[Corsair]

Smaller IR signature, smaller visual signature, ...

 

I doubt the mirage will be any different compared to other fighters.

Which other fighters ? Frontal RCS of a 2000 is something like a 1/4th of an F-15.

[GGTharos]

1/4 isn't much to write home about :-) . You need 1/16 to halve detection range.

[Ultra]

Smaller IR signature, smaller visual signature, ...

 

Those will help.

[Hummingbird]

I can't really think of a situation where the MiG-21 wouldn't be screwed against a Mirage 2000...

 

Assuming the MiG-21 makes it into a WVR engagement:

 

Mirage vs MiG21 @ 15kft

STR = 13.5 deg/s vs 8.5 deg/s

ITR = 23.5 deg/s vs 17.6 deg/s

 

In other words the MiG-21 pilot better be lucky with an R-60 in the merge or he will be toast, provided ofcourse the M2000 pilot knows what he's doing.

[Corsair]

1/4 isn't much to write home about :-) . You need 1/16 to halve detection range.

 

A 10 - 20 % detection range difference isn't nothing and can significantly influence the issue of an engagement.

[Hook47]

M2000 RCS is similiar to an F-16, which means about 3-5 square meters.

 

MiG-21bis is also in the same range.

 

Oh god, be careful bringing up the 21Bis, some people might get antsy! :megalol:

[Hook47]

Besides flare numbers and more crappy missiles the 21 has no advantages.

It won't be easier than Vs F-15.

 

If the Mirage has fewer missile than F-15, it's more nervous and thus more dangerous for you in the merge.

 

A proficient Mirage pilot will have first shoot opportunity...

 

So a MiG 21 has no advantages, except for those advantages? That is basically what you just said lol. Either it has advantages or it doesn't my friend, that was my whole point. And once again, the R-60M is far from crappy. The Gar 8 is crappy, the R-60M is dangerous.

 

A proficient Mirage pilot nothin! Only a fool of a Mirage pilot WOULDN'T have first shot opportunity, the Super 530D has a 40km published range, but it only has two, and like even the AIM 120C, neither is a promised hit and the merge comes quickly. I've had F-15s chuck four AIM 120s at me and managed to jink them with hard dives and breaks. BVR is far from a guarantee.

 

I think it will be easier than a F-15 for sure, and that is based on my regular clashes and sometimes victories against Eagles. I am 1000% sure the Mirage will be less of a threat than a MiG 29.

 

I can't really think of a situation where the MiG-21 wouldn't be screwed against a Mirage 2000...

 

Assuming the MiG-21 makes it into a WVR engagement:

 

Mirage vs MiG21 @ 15kft

STR = 13.5 deg/s vs 8.5 deg/s

ITR = 23.5 deg/s vs 17.6 deg/s

 

In other words the MiG-21 pilot better be lucky with an R-60 in the merge or he will be toast, provided ofcourse the M2000 pilot knows what he's doing.

 

 

Here is a few for your consideration:

 

1. If the Super 530s miss, and the MiG has 4 Heaters when the Mirage has 2

2. The M2000C pilot DOESN'T know what he is doing

3. The MiG 21 gets the jump on the M2000 (It's published climb rate and max speed are not enough over the Fishbeds to allow it to leave it in the dust, and us Fishbed pilots love flying super low and shooting up behind bandits

4. In a blow for blow turning fight (The M2000 has a better sustained turn rate, but not so much that a skilled MiG pilot would be total done for)

5. If the MiG 21 has a wingman ( almost always have another 21 with me, and sometimes a 29 to jam us into the merge)

6. If the M2000 is out of flares (likely) and heaters, and the MiG is not.

7. If the M2000 pilot is doing what I see a lot of Eagle pilots do- that is be up in the stars, Con-trailing, with there head buried in the sensors)

 

Also the F-15C has a published STR of 22 degrees/sec if I remember right, yet I still find myself most comfortable in the merge against an F-15, so that does come down to the pilots.

 

Just a few off the top of my head.

 

 

Back to discussion about the Mirage itself, one thing I am wondering is if it will release into 1.5 or 2.0 Alpha. . . That's the question of the hour for me.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Hook47

[Zeus67]

SO any word on that countermeasure upgrade or external pods, devs?

 

We are going to include the Éclair countermeasures pod. It will add 16 flares and 18 chaff to the existing count for a total of 32 flares and 130 chaff.

 

Of course if you select the pod, you will lose the braking parachute.

[Corsair]

We are going to include the Éclair countermeasures pod. It will add 16 flares and 18 chaff to the existing count for a total of 32 flares and 130 chaff.

 

Of course if you select the pod, you will lose the braking parachute.

 

Are cable arresting systems implemented on NTTR runways ? If yes, that would be interesting as well to have the possibility to install an arresting hook.

[Corsair]

1. If the Super 530s miss, and the MiG has 4 Heaters when the Mirage has 2

2. The M2000C pilot DOESN'T know what he is doing

3. The MiG 21 gets the jump on the M2000 (It's published climb rate and max speed are not enough over the Fishbeds to allow it to leave it in the dust, and us Fishbed pilots love flying super low and shooting up behind bandits

4. In a blow for blow turning fight (The M2000 has a better sustained turn rate, but not so much that a skilled MiG pilot would be total done for)

5. If the MiG 21 has a wingman ( almost always have another 21 with me, and sometimes a 29 to jam us into the merge)

6. If the M2000 is out of flares (likely) and heaters, and the MiG is not.

So, you basically say that, if it is a 18 months old piloting a 2000 versus a full wing of 21s with experienced drivers, the 2000 will probably lose. That's not impossible, yes.

 

But the point is : with equally experienced pilots, the 21 has close to zero chance.

[Hook47]

We are going to include the Éclair countermeasures pod. It will add 16 flares and 18 chaff to the existing count for a total of 32 flares and 130 chaff.

 

Of course if you select the pod, you will lose the braking parachute.

 

YES YES YES!!! THANK YOU ZEUS! :thumbup:

 

So glad to here you guys will implement that!

[Hook47]

So, you basically say that, if it is a 18 months old piloting a 2000 versus a full wing of 21s with experienced drivers, the 2000 will probably lose. That's not impossible, yes.

 

But the point is : with equally experienced pilots, the 21 has close to zero chance.

 

When did I mention a whole wing? In only one of those situations did I mention there being two MiGs instead of one. With equally experienced pilots, the Mirage 2000 has a slightly better chance, the MiG 21 has FAR from zero chance. How do I know this? I fight against human controlled F-15s, SU-27s and MiG 29s every time I fly, and frankly they are more deadly than the M2000C (Nothing against the M2000, I can't wait for it!) and I stand a chance against each of those if I fly smart and know my enemy.

[GGTharos]

 

Here is a few for your consideration:

 

4. In a blow for blow turning fight (The M2000 has a better sustained turn rate, but not so much that a skilled MiG pilot would be total done for)

 

 

2dps superiority of considered a significant advantage. Over 10 sec it will gain you 20 deg of angles. Over the span of a full turn you'll be closer to 60 deg. The mirage had double that advantage and then some.

 

5. If the MiG 21 has a wingman ( almost always have another 21 with me, and sometimes a 29 to jam us into the merge)

6. If the M2000 is out of flares (likely) and heaters, and the MiG is not.

7. If the M2000 pilot is doing what I see a lot of Eagle pilots do- that is be up in the stars, Con-trailing, with there head buried in the sensors)

 

So gameisms are now airframe advantages? :-)

[Corsair]

When did I mention a whole wing? In only one of those situations did I mention there being two MiGs instead of one. With equally experienced pilots, the Mirage 2000 has a slightly better chance, the MiG 21 has FAR from zero chance. How do I know this? I fight against human controlled F-15s, SU-27s and MiG 29s every time I fly, and frankly they are more deadly than the M2000C (Nothing against the M2000, I can't wait for it!) and I stand a chance against each of those if I fly smart and know my enemy.

 

7. If the M2000 pilot is doing what I see a lot of Eagle pilots do- that is be up in the stars, Con-trailing, with there head buried in the sensors)

Fight against people who know how to fight then, and you'll see these true aircraft qualities. Especially since a 2000C isn't managed at all like an Eagle in combat situation.

[Hook47]

Fight against people who know how to fight then, and you'll see these true aircraft qualities. Especially since a 2000C isn't managed at all like an Eagle in combat situation.

 

I intend to do just that. On both sides of the encounter.

[Hook47]

2dps superiority of considered a significant advantage. Over 10 sec it will gain you 20 deg of angles. Over the span of a full turn you'll be closer to 60 deg. The mirage had double that advantage and then some.

 

 

 

So gameisms are now airframe advantages? :-)

 

On the books doesn't mean it will play out that way in the game, and turn rate isn't everything!

 

When did I say they were airframe advantages? You said that. I was talking about it in how it would pertain to multiplayer combat. What's with people puttin words into your mouth up in here? Guys are acting like I'm insulting their mother by discussing the pros and cons.

[GGTharos]

You're not discussing pros and cons, you're discussing flight sun pilots, but you started by saying such interesting things as fishbeds being able to hang in turns with modern planes. Sure, when the other guy doesn't know what he's doing, fine. But you'll probably find most people aren't interested in the trivial examples

[Hummingbird]

So a MiG 21 has no advantages, except for those advantages? That is basically what you just said lol. Either it has advantages or it doesn't my friend, that was my whole point. And once again, the R-60M is far from crappy. The Gar 8 is crappy, the R-60M is dangerous.

 

A proficient Mirage pilot nothin! Only a fool of a Mirage pilot WOULDN'T have first shot opportunity, the Super 530D has a 40km published range, but it only has two, and like even the AIM 120C, neither is a promised hit and the merge comes quickly. I've had F-15s chuck four AIM 120s at me and managed to jink them with hard dives and breaks. BVR is far from a guarantee.

 

I think it will be easier than a F-15 for sure, and that is based on my regular clashes and sometimes victories against Eagles. I am 1000% sure the Mirage will be less of a threat than a MiG 29.

 

 

 

 

Here is a few for your consideration:

 

1. If the Super 530s miss, and the MiG has 4 Heaters when the Mirage has 2

2. The M2000C pilot DOESN'T know what he is doing

3. The MiG 21 gets the jump on the M2000 (It's published climb rate and max speed are not enough over the Fishbeds to allow it to leave it in the dust, and us Fishbed pilots love flying super low and shooting up behind bandits

4. In a blow for blow turning fight (The M2000 has a better sustained turn rate, but not so much that a skilled MiG pilot would be total done for)

5. If the MiG 21 has a wingman ( almost always have another 21 with me, and sometimes a 29 to jam us into the merge)

6. If the M2000 is out of flares (likely) and heaters, and the MiG is not.

7. If the M2000 pilot is doing what I see a lot of Eagle pilots do- that is be up in the stars, Con-trailing, with there head buried in the sensors)

 

Also the F-15C has a published STR of 22 degrees/sec if I remember right, yet I still find myself most comfortable in the merge against an F-15, so that does come down to the pilots.

 

Just a few off the top of my head.

 

 

Back to discussion about the Mirage itself, one thing I am wondering is if it will release into 1.5 or 2.0 Alpha. . . That's the question of the hour for me.

 

I am of course assuming that the Mirage pilot isn't completely clueless and that both are aware of each other's presence. Otherwise you could win in any bird fast enough to catch the other in straight flight.

 

As for the F-15 comparison, at 15 kft the F-15C features an almost identical STR compared with the Mirage of ~13 deg/sec, so the only difference you'll notice (which will be a rather important one) is that the Mirage features a substantially higher ITR at the same altitude to boot.

 

In other words the Mirage will be a tougher opponent than the F-15C in WVR, not the opposite. You can probably guess what that means in relation to the MiG-29 as well.

[Hummingbird]

Actually I need to correct myself, the F-15C doesn't match the Mirage 2000 in STR at 15 kft, the F-15 is actually worse at 11.5 deg/sec compared to the 13.5 deg/sec of the Mirage.

 

So yeah, good luck attempting an angles fight with a competent Mirage pilot in the MiG-21 :D

[Hook47]

Actually I need to correct myself, the F-15C doesn't match the Mirage 2000 in STR at 15 kft, the F-15 is actually worse at 11.5 deg/sec compared to the 13.5 deg/sec of the Mirage.

 

So yeah, good luck attempting an angles fight with a competent Mirage pilot in the MiG-21 :D

 

The STT and ITT are not what make me fear the F-15C, 27 or 29 in the merge, it's the deadly amount of ordinance and sensors like the longitudinal mode, and particularly the HMD on the 27 and 29. Also the 15 can climb better than the 21 in the merge, but the Mirage is much closer to the 21.

 

You're not discussing pros and cons, you're discussing flight sun pilots, but you started by saying such interesting things as fishbeds being able to hang in turns with modern planes.

 

Actually a USAF F-16 aviator said that if you look back.

Edited December 2, 2015 by Hook47

[Corsair]

There are no more sensors on an F-15C than on a 2000C, and they share the same common radar modes of operation. Ordinance is indeed lacking on the C, Eagle's is more comparable to the -5s.

[Hummingbird]

The STT and ITT are not what make me fear the F-15C, 27 or 29 in the merge, it's the deadly amount of ordinance and sensors like the longitudinal mode, and particularly the HMD on the 27 and 29. Also the 15 can climb better than the 21 in the merge, but the Mirage is much closer to the 21.

 

The Mirage features the same longitudal mode, and its got just as effective a set of IR missiles as the F-15. What it does lack are AMRAAMs, but it does feature the equivalent to AIM-7 Sparrows.

 

As for climb rate, I really don't think you'll feel the difference considering that the Mirage will be going for a rear aspect shot regardless, which is a lot more dangerous than a climbing F-15.

 

Really the MiG is balls deep in this one.

Edited December 1, 2015 by Hummingbird