Having trouble shooting down planes

[bigcountry]

Hey guys, I am using the F-15 and having real trouble shooting down planes. By the time I get a lock on them the have missles on the way and hit me within seconds. Can someone plz give me some flying lessons?

[Nefron]

If the AWACS is present in the mission, try calling it up from the commns menu. It should give you the position of the nearest enemy group.

 

Learn the RWR symbology, so that you know what threats are the most dangerous and require immediate action.

[lo999]

If the enemy is already aware of your location and is BVR, then turn on ECM. If they've launched missiles at you, start dispensing chaff (3 bursts/sec). In my experience I've only ever been hit by a Russian missile when I wasn't aware that they had launched.

 

Also note that turning on ECM will make it easier for enemy planes to locate you if they aren't already aware of your presence, though it'll decrease the range at which they can get a lock on you.

Edited March 30, 2014 by lo999

[blkspade]

If the enemy is already aware of your location and is BVR, then turn on ECM. If they've launched missiles at you, start dispensing chaff (3 bursts/sec). In my experience I've only ever been hit by a Russian missile when I wasn't aware that they had launched.

 

Also note that turning on ECM will make it easier for enemy planes to locate you if they aren't already aware of your presence, though it'll decrease the range at which they can get a lock on you.

 

It is more accurate to say that ECM impairs a bandit's ability to engage you at ranges beyond burn through. It actually increases the range they can lock you, they just can't tell what that range is. It is actually possible to extrapolate if a bandit would be close enough to launch at before burn through in some situations, if missile performance allowed for it.

[bigcountry]

Question. Is it logical to shoot missles using the f15 h3ad on? Should I fire one head on then try to maneuver around him and launch again. Just trying to get a warm and fuzzy about missles and the ranges to fire.

 

thanks guys

[GGTharos]

It's logical to shoot from any aspect.

 

It's also logical to attempt to flank your bandit before you take a shot, if he lets you. If he doesn't let you (ie. turns into you), then yeah, have at it head on.

 

Question. Is it logical to shoot missles using the f15 h3ad on? Should I fire one head on then try to maneuver around him and launch again. Just trying to get a warm and fuzzy about missles and the ranges to fire.

 

thanks guys

[NineLine]

It's logical to shoot from any aspect.

 

It's also logical to attempt to flank your bandit before you take a shot, if he lets you. If he doesn't let you (ie. turns into you), then yeah, have at it head on.

 

Would it make more sense to fire then try to flank, giving him something to keep busy with, ie your first shot?

[GGTharos]

You always flank if you can. Why expose yourself to counter-fire if you don't have to?

 

You have two ways of achieving this: Higher and faster gives you longer missile range (not really effective in DCS yet), and flanking - which works if the bandits have a particular job to do that isn't pointing their nose on you ... or if they just don't know.

 

The reaction is to turn away from the threat (ie. you) and from a flanking position, that means they will pretty much never* regain the initiative.

 

* for some values of never.

[blkspade]

While not fully realized, it is still somewhat effective. From the point of view that being lower/slower does negatively effect range. Compared to the FC2 and earlier days of getting maximum missile performance from the deck.

 

You have two ways of achieving this: Higher and faster gives you longer missile range (not really effective in DCS yet),

[Frostie]

While not fully realized, it is still somewhat effective. From the point of view that being lower/slower does negatively effect range. Compared to the FC2 and earlier days of getting maximum missile performance from the deck.

FC2 and before altitude has always affected range, it's always been this way. Dense air has always been a factor for aircraft and missile performance since day 1.

[bigcountry]

Ok thanks for the info guys. Are there any good guides out there for ranges of the missiles that are carried on the f15

 

thanks again

[Lizzard]

In the F-15 you have real advantage, because of the AIM 120 fire and forget missiles...so you don`t have to establish a constant radar lock on the target after you released the missile. And for the range..it depends (speed/alt/angle) of the enemy..but you should keep in mind the earlier you shoot, the weaker is the chance the missile hits the target..so you can shoot..to force the enemy in an evasive manuveur..then try to get closer and shoot again. If you have a missile comin at you..beaming (put the missile on the 3 or 9 o`clock position) works pretty well..besides chaff/flares and the use of ECM (ECM makes it harder for the enemy to establish a lock at you)

[blkspade]

FC2 and before altitude has always affected range, it's always been this way. Dense air has always been a factor for aircraft and missile performance since day 1.

 

Air density was always a factor, but the missile would always reach a fixed maximum first then be effected by drag after the motor stopped. So firing at much higher target was basically penalty free.

[lunaticfringe]

If you have a missile comin at you..beaming (put the missile on the 3 or 9 o`clock position) works pretty well...

 

It also surrenders the majority of your SA. If you plan on engaging, you don't surrender this until late, or at all, if you can, whereas a 60 degree offset holds the opponent on your scope, and puts you in the frame of reference for an orthogonal defense because it will generate the maximum line of sight against the weapon for the best radius cost when you make your out of plane break.

 

besides chaff/flares and the use of ECM (ECM makes it harder for the enemy to establish a lock at you)

 

ECM is useless after burn through, meaning if he's got a shot in the air, you need to turn it off; otherwise, if it's a radar-guided weapon, all you're doing is giving it a scent.

[bigcountry]

Ahhh ok. So I go ecm on before I fire? Then if he fires, turn ecm off and take evasive action to 60 or 90°? What is SA? If I go AB while evading, I can be tracked easier?

 

I usually fire the 120 about 10 miles out with an altitude advantage, but this depends if he launches

 

Thanks

[blkspade]

If you are in a good position to fire, then you are already too close to be using ECM. SA is situational awareness. AB will make you easier to track for the Russian aircraft using EOS and IR missiles. Sometimes the situation will require it though.

 

Ahhh ok. So I go ecm on before I fire? Then if he fires, turn ecm off and take evasive action to 60 or 90°? What is SA? If I go AB while evading, I can be tracked easier?

 

I usually fire the 120 about 10 miles out with an altitude advantage, but this depends if he launches

 

Thanks

[Lizzard]

you turn on ECM when you enter the battlefield (the enemy have a harder time to establish a lock at you)..if you are close turn it of (because ecm makes you kind of a lit christmas tree, and if the enemy is close enough he will burn through your ecm anyway) and yap beaming is useless when the enemy is already too close..so it will not waste enough energy of the enemy missile and it will most likely not fool the enemy doppler radar..beaming helps against long range shoots an mostly SAM shots. close enemy shots are faced with chaff/flares and radical manouvers..and allways shoot yourself to keep the bandit busy

Edited March 31, 2014 by Lizzard

[GGTharos]

What are radical maneuvers? Do they have demands?

 

close enemy shots are faced with chaff/flares and radical manouvers..and allways shoot yourself to keep the bandit busy

[Lizzard]

high speed, quick turns, loads of Gs and always watch your kinetic energy..if you are slow..you are dead. And always keep track where are you and where is the enemy..

 

so..from the book:

 

Turning to beam aspect should allow visual acquisition and tracking of the incoming missile, particularly if fired from six o'clock. It is important that tactical aircraft maintain high airspeed over hostile territory, preferably above vc (v, - corner speed = minimum speed at which maximum load factor (G) may be attained) to allow the application of maximum G when under attack. A good rule of thumb quoted [1 ] is that a missile must pull at least five times the G-load of its target for a successful interception, therefore an aircraft maximises its chances of survival by maintaining a high energy state.

[lunaticfringe]

Now that we're all back in ground school...

 

Alright, to answer Country's "head on" question, intercept geometry is better shown as illustrations, rather than simply described.

 

Head-on engagements are often referred to as "leading the bandit around by the nose", because that is exactly what you are doing as he responds to your launches. We'll begin at 18NM (pretty much burn through); you shut off your ECM like a smart lad, and had your auto-chaff program on to force a rejection on his side, meaning you Fox Three without a reply.

 

If he's an idiot, he goes down main street and eats a SLAMMwich. He's not an idiot, so he turns away 60 degrees to extend the amount of time he has to live. The resulting pattern is from you shooting him as he turns back in, and his subsequent maneuvers into the notch/orthogonal.

 

Endgame is at around 3 miles separation, with you less than 90 degrees off his tail. He's got no real SA to speak of, while you're well engaged and positioned for a finishing blow. His options to run are nonexistent here, and a turn into the notch for another AIM-120 only solves your aspect problem even more.

 

You want to get to his tail? Shoot at him. Easiest solution there is to get to a tail aspect.

Edited March 31, 2014 by lunaticfringe

[bigcountry]

Thanks for the help guys. I have been getting some really decent kills after a couple of hours in the air.

 

Thanks again!!!!

[lunaticfringe]

I think this strat would end up in a lot of ETs to the face since you're doing exactly what you said only a idiot would do and "going down Main Street"

 

It stated that he had no acquisition; further, "realistic" EOS doesn't hand off to ET at 18Nm, so there is no reply on that hand, either.

 

Also there are more ways to defend against a missile than by turning abeam to it.. I think most bandits aren't going to act how you predict at all. I know I wouldn't.

 

I've watched enough tracks, and enough *real* ACMI, to know this isn't the case. But you go on ahead and do what you're going to do. It doesn't matter *what* you think you're going to do- once put on the disadvantage, if you are being fired upon before you come back to a point of acquisition every time, you're staying there, and you aren't getting a shot off.

[blkspade]

As far as in game mechanics are, a Russian bandit will only get LA at that range if they are at very high altitudes with the Eagle in AB. In most cases Russian drivers aren't going to be that high, and it only proves to further benefit the Eagle with 120s anyway.

[blkspade]

My bad, I though we were talking about DCS. Sucks to be OP if he keeps getting shot down in real eh? Forcing bandit to go defensive is great and all but you can't call it a checkmate by any stretch. Your srat assumes a lot and completely leaves out factors like the terrain, other aircraft, that the enemy has sensors and weapons beyond his RWR, and the fact that the enemy has a lot more tricks than notching until you're on his 6.. And you rely on the enemy, coming head on, seeing your spike, to not have you painted or locked? This is borderline lunacy! I'd expect more from a pilot on his first flight.

 

Oops, now I'm talking about DCS again. In real I guess any fighter starting with "F" just walks right in and shoots slammers till the bad guy is dead..

 

In game, if you're forced defensive 1v1 without having gotten your own missile (ARH/ET) off at the bandit, the smartest thing to do is just keep running home. All those tricks you think you can use to recommit can work against the newer pilots but will fail 98% of the time against those who are experienced and are paying attention.

[lunaticfringe]

My bad, I though we were talking about DCS.

 

Actually, we are in both aspects. No burner at 18Nm, no EOS in DCS, either.

 

Sucks to be OP if he keeps getting shot down in real eh? Forcing bandit to go defensive is great and all but you can't call it a checkmate by any stretch.

 

If you are maintaining a tempo that keeps him from being able to generate a response, it gets no better.

 

Your srat assumes a lot

 

It assumes two things- acquisition, and no response. That is neither "a lot", or outside the realm of what a player can generate in and of themselves.

 

and completely leaves out factors like the terrain, other aircraft, that the enemy has sensors and weapons beyond his RWR,

 

No one tactic is capable of account for every potential factor; they are merely guidelines of operation. However, as stated by the terms of the offered presentation (that is, set up to take away his shot, and using your available longer RMax), it works.

 

The simple fact is that people must be taught to walk, before they can run. OP asked a question as to how to handle a bandit when head on, and as to whether or not shooting the opponent in the face is useful. He didn't ask about terrain, he didn't ask about multiples. And terms were set that negates the "sensors and weapons beyond his RWR" as they function in DCS.

 

"No, it's not useful- he might turn. He might dive. He might hide in terrain."

 

BS. It makes him work. It makes him expend energy. It allows you to dictate the pace of the engagement. It puts him in the mental state of being the defender, rather than the aggressor.

 

Nope, that's not useful. Shooting him when he pops back up out of the notch, or pulls back up out of the terrain for a peek- nope, that's not good, either, because it makes him stay in the weeds until you can force him into the clear. Nope. No good at all.

 

Please- grace us with one of your wondrous "all mitigating circumstances accounted for one shot foolproof" tactics that you're alluding to. Illuminate us, oh we of the great unwashed.

 

and the fact that the enemy has a lot more tricks than notching until you're on his 6..

 

The potential responses to an inbound missile, whether in DCS, or in real life, with a successful probability of evasion are, in fact, quite small in number- you run, you expend its energy based on line of sight generation, you defeat it through challenging its sighting mechanism through maneuver and decoy, or you challenge it kinematically in the endgame. Anything you would be prepared to present are variations on one of those four themes. And all but one of those lowers your potential energy state to engage the opponent, but those are the ones OP should be concerned with- because they're the one who is sticking around.

 

And you rely on the enemy, coming head on, seeing your spike, to not have you painted or locked?

 

No, what it relies on is proper management of systems as are exhibited in DCS; turning off ECM at the point of simulated burn-through, usage of a decoy program to alleviate an STT-required shot, and a speed setting maintainable without burner, negating the ET. Thus, the player is actively defeating the opponent's opportunity to shoot, while holding onto one of their own.

 

If your radar is stuck rejecting chaff, your detection amounts to nothing. Paint all you want- you're not getting a shot off. So are you going to keep pressing deeper into the MEZ, hoping to get a lock and a launch off, or are you going to do something about that inbound weapon?

 

This is borderline lunacy! I'd expect more from a pilot on his first flight.

 

You apparently expect a lot; OP couldn't have been said to have a functional grasp on the usage of the APG-63.

 

Oops, now I'm talking about DCS again. In real I guess any fighter starting with "F" just walks right in and shoots slammers till the bad guy is dead..

 

I'm talking about both- you want to be successful and survive, you respect, and respond, to the threat of incoming ordnance.

 

And, how many fourth generation Russian aircraft have kills on F-15s? And how many fourth generation Russian aircraft have F-15s killed? To answer your last question, as of right now- yes, they do. That's *exactly* what happens.