Mig 21 general usage thread

[Paradox]

A split-s from 3000ft :lol:

 

I cannot wait to smash myself into the deck attempting this manoeuvre.

[howie87]

I'd love to set up some red flag type exercises when we get the NTTR.

 

I like the idea of 21's at low altitude performing a strike and a two ship flight of F-15's trying to defend.

 

When we get the F-18 we'll have even more options. I think the 21 would have the advantage in speed and acceleration so it could be more useful then.

[GGTharos]

Are you talking about guns only dogfighting or something?

 

Look, all of this old mig vs modern fighter stuff - it's complete fantasy.

 

The F-15A's only air to air gun victory is the MiG-21.

The F-18C showed it can self-escort and continue on to drop bombs on target when a pair of F-18C's shot down two MiG-21's without any real effort.

 

So I'm assuming you're talking about some form of fair dog-fighting training where the small size could make it harder to see etc.

 

The 21 is simply not a challenging opponent for these modern planes. If you want a challenging opponent, you need an F-4 or F-7/8 of the appropriate era. Or even an A-4.

[titanium]

The F-18 shot down by an old Iraqi Mig-25 in GW-1 was no fantasy...

[GGTharos]

... Was it a MiG-21? That MiG-25 did it's thing, but it wasn't engaged by the F-18's. Not a really appropriate engagement to mention.

 

It's like saying that a P-51 will shoot down a MiG-29 ... sure, if the MiG-29 flies straight and level and low enough speed for it, the P-51 can do it.

 

The F-18 shot down by an old Iraqi Mig-25 in GW-1 was no fantasy...

[statrekmike]

How would the MiG-21 fair against the AI F-4 we have in DCS right now?

[GGTharos]

Good question.

 

What's needed is an 'old' version of F-4 not capable of look-down, with 'old' versions of missiles. Right now the AIM-7 in game is superior to anything that MiG-21 could hope to carry, as is an AIM-9M or even the 9P modeled in-game.

[NineLine]

Good question.

 

What's needed is an 'old' version of F-4 not capable of look-down, with 'old' versions of missiles. Right now the AIM-7 in game is superior to anything that MiG-21 could hope to carry, as is an AIM-9M or even the 9P modeled in-game.

 

 

That might be something for LN to consider, they could supply the model and such for an "older" F-4 load out, maybe ED would consider adding it... maybe possibly...

[titanium]

... Was it a MiG-21? That MiG-25 did it's thing, but it wasn't engaged by the F-18's. Not a really appropriate engagement to mention.

It's like saying that a P-51 will shoot down a MiG-29 ... sure, if the MiG-29 flies straight and level and low enough speed for it, the P-51 can do it.

 

Its not a mig-21 but it is an aircraft from the same era.

 

And you are exactly right that mig-25 did it's thing. It fought using what ever advantages it had and shot down a fighter a generation ahead. It is irrelevant what that F-18 was doing at that time. It was shot down during a real war, with real pilots and with real missiles. No fantasies.

 

The mig-21 too is know for hit and run tactics. It is not inconceivable that it can do the same.

[NineLine]

Its not a mig-21 but it is an aircraft from the same era.

 

And you are exactly right that mig-25 did it's thing. It fought using what ever advantages it had and shot down a fighter a generation ahead. It is irrelevant what that F-18 was doing at that time. It was shot down during a real war, with real pilots and with real missiles. No fantasies.

 

The mig-21 too is know for hit and run tactics. It is not inconceivable that it can do the same.

 

Nope, GG is just saying the odds are stacked against it, heavily. Much like an unarmed EF-111 scoring a kill on an F-1, sometimes you beat the odds :)

[MBot]

Good question.

 

What's needed is an 'old' version of F-4 not capable of look-down, with 'old' versions of missiles. Right now the AIM-7 in game is superior to anything that MiG-21 could hope to carry, as is an AIM-9M or even the 9P modeled in-game.

 

Fortunately the AI F-4E in game is modeled without look down/shoot down capability. In addition if you don't equip the Phantom with Sparrows you can pretend they are AIM-9L armed German F-4F that East German and Czechoslovak MiG-21bis were expected to meet in the 80s.

 

Of course Sidewinder armed F-16A/C (no BVR for Falcons until after Desert Storm) were also a common enemy in the 80s. I think it even was the most numerous single aircraft type, east or west, over the central front.

 

So at least for singeplayer we have some attractive air-air options for the MiG.

Edited April 29, 2014 by MBot

[GGTharos]

And you are exactly right that mig-25 did it's thing. It fought using what ever advantages it had and shot down a fighter a generation ahead. It is irrelevant what that F-18 was doing at that time.

 

It's quite relevant. Those F-18's weren't doing anything. They were told to wait for F-15's to come do the air to air fight. This resulted in the shoot-down of Spreichner's F-18 and a huge fight between USAF and USN regarding AWACS tasking.

 

Don't try to pass off a kill achieved under particularly likely circumstances as capability - it's luck, and absolutely nothing more. In every other engagement the MiG-25 got thrown into it either got shot down, or had to hit the road.

 

Newer gen planes aren't indestructible or unbeatable, but trying to pass off a lucky one-off as an indication that they could be useful is silly.

 

The mig-21 too is know for hit and run tactics. It is not inconceivable that it can do the same.

It is conceivable that it can get lucky. In the context of this game, it will happen more often than it should for two reasons: The weapons for the modern fighters generally suck, and usually the players can't run tactics (or check their own or their wingman's six), so a simple ambush will get them nailed.

 

In terms of how one would use their aircraft, lucky one-offs aren't exactly a tactical consideration that one plans for or discusses.

 

Again, it's like saying you could conceive of a P-51 (or really, a vietnam era F-4) shooting down a MiG-29. Do you see any air forces planning on meeting MiG-29's with P-51's (or vietnam era F-4's?)? No? Well, there's a reason for that.

[GGTharos]

Yep, also I have very detailed info on AIM-7E/E2 so I think it would be possible to build this missile for the game for simulating vietnam-era engagements, though I think a bit more changes need to be made to guidance logic and missile failure probabilities to deal with all that.

 

Fortunately the AI F-4E in game is modeled without look down/shoot down capability. In addition if you don't equip the Phantom with Sparrows you can pretend they are AIM-9L armed German F-4F that East German and Czechoslovak MiG-21bis were expected to meet in the 80s.

 

Of course Sidewinder armed F-16A (no BVR for Falcons until after DesertbStorm) were also a common enemy in the 80s. I think it even was the most numerous single aircraft type, east or west, over the central front.

 

So at least for singeplayer we have some attractive air-air options for the MiG.

[MBot]

I would welcome the AIM-7E very much. Though I would like to mention that the MiG-21Bis never fought in Vietnam and was only barely a Vietnam-era aircraft (production run 1972-1984). MiG-21Bis met the AIM-7E from Iranian F-4D/E and F-14A. But in combat with NATO, the contemporary Sparrow variant would most likely have been the AIM-7F. Though I am not certain how quickly the USAF/USN F-4 force has transitioned to the newer missile.

[GGTharos]

Korea then?

 

I have some documents regarding the 7F as well, but that would now be a terrible missile for the 21 to face. It's pretty much got twice the range of the E/E2 and much lower hardware failure rate.

 

I'll add that in the 80's it was the 7M/MH that was in use. Same essential aerodynamics and rocket capability as the 7F - maybe a touch longer ranged due to better propellant, but not the significant change from 7E/E2. The big changes in the 7F-7M are in the electronics.

 

Also, I will add that the vast majority of missile failures that were not hardware related when it comes to the F-4 (both 7's and 9's) is directly attributable to poor DLZ computation, representation and pilot training. In other words, huge amounts of shots outside of parameters.

 

Here my point is that it would be very hard to represent this with a simulation of the F4 ... basically you need your RIO, who needs to do all the mental math and TELL you all the stuff that an F-15's VSD tells you at a glance - things like closure, altitude, etc ... the RIO must do in his head. An AI knows all this stuff ... so ED needs to find some way to dilute this information.

Edited April 29, 2014 by GGTharos

[MBot]

I have some documents regarding the 7F as well, but that would now be a terrible missile for the 21 to face. It's pretty much got twice the range of the E/E2 and much lower hardware failure rate.

 

Well, it's the sad truth for the MiG-21Bis :) As the last variant of the MiG-21 series it entered service alongside its successor.

 

The Warsaw Pact MiG-21Bis would be expected to meet a wide array of missiles. Initially AIM-7E with Phantoms, probably into the early 80s. From 1976 on the AIM-7F with the F-15 and subsequently also the Phantoms, probably into the late 80s with both types. And from 1982 on the AIM-7M. The two RAF Phantom squadrons in Germany sported the Skyflash, which is above AIM-7F capability. For gameplay purpose the AIM-7E-2 would probable the most "fun" to face in the MiG-21Bis, but for a 70s scenario we miss a useful amount of assets in DCS. The 80s are currently more feasible.

 

Fortunately for the MiG-21Bis driver, BVR shooters are still not the rule in the 80s. If we look at the Central Front in 1986 for example, NATO's BVR capable deployed fighters are 96 F-15C, 72 F-4E/G (but the only SEAD wing in Europe would not be wasted in air-air), 48 RAF Phantom FGR.2 and 72 Canadian CF-18. Non-BVR fighters include 120 USAF F-16C, 175 Luftwaffe F-4F, 160 Belgian F-16A, 213 Dutch F-16A and 70 Danish F-16A. And considering the intensity of air combat in Europe (huge number of aircraft, extremely heavy jamming by both sides, over stressing of radio communication), I have my doubts that ROE would have allowed BVR combat anyway. The huge success of the Israeli F-15 1982 in Lebanon for example was almost exclusive under VID ROE; and this was in a much simpler environment than WWIII. So I think there are some opportunities for the MiG-21Bis to do dogfight even in a relative "modern" (in the context of the MiG-21) scenario. Of course at a severe disadvantage compered to contemporary fighters, but that is the fate of the Bis :)

 

 

P.S. Sorry for the lecture, but Cold War history is my hobby :)

[GGTharos]

I think you over-estimate jamming effectiveness a bit. It has to be very targeted, and there's no guarantee of being crushed into a VID environment at all.

 

In any case, do you know which missiles the MiG-21 was sporting at the time? R-60's may be a bit of a saving grace, because late model Ps or Limas completely outmatch anything prior, and even so they completely outmatch the 60 in range, but at least the 60 gives a real fighting change to the 21.

[MBot]

By that time the R-60M was widely in use. While no match for the latest Sidewinders, it was a decent enough weapon for close combat I guess. The MiG-21 got a bad reputation due to the abysmal performance of the R-3S in the Arab-Israeli wars, but that was a weapon long replaced in the Warsaw Pact.

 

I'm sure the MiG-21 also kept using the R-3R SARH missile for N/AW-intercepts.

[GGTharos]

The R-60M should make it a respectable opponent in the phone booth, so that's all good.

[Devious]

Hey Guys, really enjoyed seeing all this information come out. There is one thing that I'll mention, but I am not saying it to say that the Mig-21 stills holds a candle in modern warfare or anything like that, just something to discuss. All of the engagements that you guys mentioned from what I have been able to gather was a better trained pilot. I know that a lot of the smaller countries can't afford to send their fighters up every day to practice or to hold events like Red Flag in order to get better. Not saying it will make the 21 in DCS a competitor, just something to note and discuss. Thanks fellas!

[GGTharos]

It wasn't just a better pilot. Against a teen fighter, the MiG-21 is a low capability aircraft. Even if you're an average pilot, it isn't stopping you from locking up the MiG-21 and sending a sparrow his way. His RWR equipment isn't exactly great and he might not be able to notch well.

 

Or you can just drive right inside the Rtr of your Sparrow and launch it, and he won't even have time to turn into a notch, while simultaneously not being in range to employ his weapons. It's even worse than that - the MiG-21's radar will just never lock onto any of those fighters thanks to their built in ECM. It's too old to deal with that ECM.

 

It's a bit different if we're talking IR missiles only, but not by much: An AIM-9L has more than twice the range of an R-60.

 

Yes, the pilot counts, but we're not comparing pilots. Try taking up a fighter in-game, arming it with only R-60's and fuel tanks (because you want to be saddled down to simulate MiG-21 acceleration etc a bit) and go up against someone with sparrows and sidewinders, or R-27s and R-73's. I don't think you'll be blaming pilot quality when you get spanked :)

 

I'd certainly blame the pilot quality if the other guy got spanked though! :D

[MBot]

Considering the same amount of training, experience and support, I would say the MiG-21 could generally hold its own in general air combat against non-modernized Phantoms, pre-AMRAAM F-16, and US teen-fighters under visual ID restrictions. Of course I would expect the teen-fighters to have a better kill/death ratio than the MiG, due to being a newer generation of aircraft than the MiG-21 family. In set up 1-on-1 duel situations the superiority of the modern fighters would probably be more pronounced than in the general chaos of war.

 

If the Rules of Engagement allow for engagement without visual ID, the MiG-21 is of course in a world of hurt :)

[GGTharos]

Yep, the combat exchange ratio is the right way to think about it.

[Devious]

The both of you have great insight. That's what I have been looking for as I have not yet done any kind of A to A combat in DCS. So lets just take the airframe of the Mig and talk about that. What do you guys think of the capabilities of the airframe itself facing teen series or eurofighters and mirages? Don't include missiles, ECM or anything like that, just the agility of the it. I know that one of the problems found when the US was testing the Mig was the complete lack of rear visibility....I think one of the guys said "If you see him flipping over and banking back and forth, he's not evading you, he's just trying to see you". And GO!

[GGTharos]

In a fair, head on fight?

 

Against any teen fighter, it's probably double inferior, but it all depends on configuration etc.

 

They all have more care-free handling and it can't even hang in a turn with half of them.

 

Against Mirages, I don't really know, but given that they can duke it out with F-16's, I'd say it's going to do about as well against those.

 

But again, it all depends. I'll tell you when it comes out - I'll be buying it to fly as an aggressor on occasion :D