static target -> JDAM, moving target -> LGB ... riiight?

[Flagrum]

I took the A-10C out of the hangar the first time after a while (Ka-50 and Huey rock! :o), just to blow up some stuff. I had a T-90 driving at 30 kts(??) back and forth on a road.

 

First problem: I had a HARD time to get a lock on that thing with the TGP... I tried "EVERYTHING" ... most of the time the best I could archive was that the TGP (very) briefly showed the point track square, but it didn't stay on or even started to actually track the tank.

Is that just because of the speed of the tank? How shall one deal with that?

 

Second problem: eventually I got the tank locked in point track mode. I configured the GBU-12 with at first 12 sec auto lase and dropped it on the tank via CCRP. It went dumb and missed the tank by half a mile or so. *headscratch*. I tried it again and made sure, everything was set up properly - the GBU-12, the TGP, the laser. I even set auto lase time to 30 seconds. And again, the moment the bomb was dropped, the laser fired, but the weapon remained dumber than a rock of same weight ...

 

Then it hit me. CCRP. I had set up a waypoint at the starting location of the tank. By the time I pickled over that spot, the tank was already a mile down the road. Perfectly lasing doesn't help if you drop the thing at the wrong spot. The bomb never saw the perfectly laser illumiated target ...

 

I expected some sort of pilot error after all the time I was absent from the A-10C, but this ...? lol. But still, that leads me to my second question: how to deal with this situation? Using CCIP instead (which is interestingly enough the default setting for GBUs)?

 

Or is the simple answer to all these questions just "use MAVs"? :o)

[MTFDarkEagle]

Your SPI probably still was on the waypoint you described (starting point of the tank). After you have the tank locked in your TGP, set your SPI. Then you should get correct aiming guidance.

[Flagrum]

Your SPI probably still was on the waypoint you described (starting point of the tank). After you have the tank locked in your TGP, set your SPI. Then you should get correct aiming guidance.

 

... :doh:

 

Thank you. :notworthy:

[PFunk1606688187]

If its a moving target you could use CCIP. Nothing preventing you from using that with Paveways.

 

Also there's nothing about CCRP requiring you to use a waypoint as SPI. CCRP merely tracks the SPI location and if that is slaved to your TGP tracking gate then you should simply be able to drop the bomb on the tank where it is and then the Paveway will track the laser almost right away. The problem with the paveway running dumb is that its seeker head is narrow enough that if you don't drop it on or near your target then it won't even see the laser.

 

TGP SOI TMS FWD Long while Point Tracking, CCRP profile to GBU-12, Manual Lase the moment it drops or shortly thereafter, ???, Profit. (I think that will work, never tried CCRP with moving target). Alternatively you could just eye ball the lead on the tank, SPI the road ahead of it, CCRP that spot, and if you guessed the windage right your LGB seeker head should be able to track and hopefully still be on a ballistic profile that will allow it to correct for the Tank's travel. If the target is moving and the LGB is constantly steering Pure Pursuit then its possible it could exhaust all its energy and ultimately fall short, so maybe a lead-late-lase method would be more accurate if more finicky.

 

CCRP is not slaved to waypoints, nor is it slaved to level bombing, nor are LGBs slaved to CCRP. Its all rather more flexible than most people's default methodology seems to be in these parts.

Edited May 3, 2014 by P*Funk

[Flagrum]

If its a moving target you could use CCIP. Nothing preventing you from using that with Paveways.

 

Also there's nothing about CCRP requiring you to use a waypoint as SPI. CCRP merely tracks the SPI location and if that is slaved to your TGP tracking gate then you should simply be able to drop the bomb on the tank where it is and then the Paveway will track the laser almost right away. The problem with the paveway running dumb is that its seeker head is narrow enough that if you don't drop it on or near your target then it won't even see the laser.

 

TGP SOI TMS FWD Long while Point Tracking, CCRP profile to GBU-12, Manual Lase the moment it drops or shortly thereafter, ???, Profit. (I think that will work, never tried CCRP with moving target). Alternatively you could just eye ball the lead on the tank, SPI the road ahead of it, CCRP that spot, and if you guessed the windage right your LGB seeker head should be able to track and hopefully still be on a ballistic profile that will allow it to correct for the Tank's travel. If the target is moving and the LGB is constantly steering Pure Pursuit then its possible it could exhaust all its energy and ultimately fall short, so maybe a lead-late-lase method would be more accurate if more finicky.

 

CCRP is not slaved to waypoints, nor is it slaved to level bombing, nor are LGBs slaved to CCRP. Its all rather more flexible than most people's default methodology seems to be in these parts.

Thanks.

 

But when thinking about it, using CCIP with LGB is a bit backwards, isn't it? I mean, you still have to track your target with your TGP in order to lase it. All what then is missing is TMS up long and you're ready to go.

 

Perhaps there is some use for CCIP in this regard when it comes to buddy or jtac lasing? No fiddling around with the TGP and whatnot, just dive into the general area and pickle? :o)

[Scrim]

Also, try shorter autolase time. Ever since the last open beta 1.2.8 I've noticed that LGBs tend to fall short if they track a laser for more than ~6 seconds prior to impact. I can't recall doing things differently, and before I could set the autolase on 100 seconds without the LGB falling short.

[PFunk1606688187]

Thanks.

 

But when thinking about it, using CCIP with LGB is a bit backwards, isn't it? I mean, you still have to track your target with your TGP in order to lase it. All what then is missing is TMS up long and you're ready to go.

 

Perhaps there is some use for CCIP in this regard when it comes to buddy or jtac lasing? No fiddling around with the TGP and whatnot, just dive into the general area and pickle? :o)

 

I don't think its backwards, its just another option. It depends on the situation, but there is no practical link between post release guidance and using CCIP or CCRP. In the case of a moving target, especially in the one you've described, CCRP could be more practical, but its all relative to the situation.

 

For instance, if you wanted to lead the bomb's release rather than have it release to strike where the target was at pickle then CCIP is the only solution that doesn't involve toying with the TGP post release.

 

Not that either solution makes a lot of sense unless you have a good reason for not using the gun or a maverick. In the end it would make a whole lot more practical sense to try and get at least a mobility kill with the GAU and then plink that stationary target with your Paveway, or let someone else finish it off later.

 

@Scrim I read that the Paveways are the only ones that have an AFM for the bomb (think thats what Ir ead it was) so its behavior should more readily represent realistic limitations, of which lasing late is one of them. Obviously an early lase will cause the bomb to expend all its potential energy while trying to fly pure pursuit with its TVV.

 

In reference to my own thoughts on leading the moving target at release, I can only wonder if the latest Paveway behavior might necessitate this choice if you want to actually score a reliable hit on a moving target, depending on its speed of course.

Edited May 3, 2014 by P*Funk

[Scrim]

Yeah, but I'm guessing it's been altered recently, because their behaviour has changed rather a bit from what I can see.

[Flagrum]

For instance, if you wanted to lead the bomb's release rather than have it release to strike where the target was at pickle then CCIP is the only solution that doesn't involve toying with the TGP post release.

Lead? How fast would a target be moving to make this necessary? This would only be necessary if the target moves so fast that it drives out of the "impact cone" that the ORP solution postulates.

 

*thinking about what I wrote for a few seconds ...*

Hrm ... but that might be highly dependent of the TOF ... interesting ... but the question remains, what is better - longer lase time to make the impact cone bigger (vs. the risk of making the weapon lose too much energy) or adding manually lead to the dropping point ...

[Flagrum]

Also, try shorter autolase time. Ever since the last open beta 1.2.8 I've noticed that LGBs tend to fall short if they track a laser for more than ~6 seconds prior to impact. I can't recall doing things differently, and before I could set the autolase on 100 seconds without the LGB falling short.

I usualy use 12 seconds. But, yeah, during some of my experiments today I had one LGB fall short of, like 3-4 meters, which the T-90 survived. I watched it from the F6 view and concluded, that it was more because of the "bang-bang" steering: each "bang" changed the attitude of the weapon quite a bit and it impacted right when I would have had expected an other, final "bang" to make it hit dead on. If it had the chance for just that one last correction, it would have hit. So it was probably just bad luck because of some milli-seconds in timing ...

[PFunk1606688187]

Lead? How fast would a target be moving to make this necessary? This would only be necessary if the target moves so fast that it drives out of the "impact cone" that the ORP solution postulates.

 

*thinking about what I wrote for a few seconds ...*

Hrm ... but that might be highly dependent of the TOF ... interesting ... but the question remains, what is better - longer lase time to make the impact cone bigger (vs. the risk of making the weapon lose too much energy) or adding manually lead to the dropping point ...

 

At 30 knots thats just about half a nm per minute, so depending on your time of fall it could be far enough off off target to make some difference. Also, not being an expert, but depending on where the target is in the impact cone couldn't it affect the accuracy? If the arc of fall looks more like its chasing the target rather than falling onto it that could make a difference in accuracy, particularly if expending energy is an issue. I don't know enough about the LGB profile to know for sure.

 

I'm not really sure if LGB guidance logic is in any way designed to cope with a moving target (at least the one in this sim), but the bang bang guidance seems to be far from ideal. Newer JDAMs are going to be fully rated for TGP terminal guidance to moving targets but I'm not sure if that includes the laser seeker head as being part of that.

 

All in all hardly my first choice for a moving MBT, but an interesting experiment.

[pj]

I was practicing using GBU12s to hit moving tanks recently. I seem to have the best results using CCIP 3/9 mode, approaching from behind the tank at about 8-9000 feet, holding release with the pipper just ahead of the tank then pulling up into a 5-10 degree climb until release. Profile is set to auto-lase for 12 seconds. Lower than 8000 feet I turn on the laser as soon as the bomb releases. Yesterday I hit 8 out of 12!

[chardly38]

First problem: I had a HARD time to get a lock on that thing with the TGP... I tried "EVERYTHING" ... most of the time the best I could archive was that the TGP (very) briefly showed the point track square, but it didn't stay on or even started to actually track the tank.

Is that just because of the speed of the tank? How shall one deal with that?

 

When I have this problem try the boat switch to get the different FLIR settings for the TGP. ED is enjoying making the TGP more difficult to stay on target. After the latest up date I have never seen so many GIMBAL ROLL in the sim before. Its becoming annoying.