Journey of a new pilot...

[Buckeye]

Why so obsessed with "dogfighting" ?

 

...because that's what interests me. Same as some people are obsessed with ground attacks, but I have no interest in them. Different strokes for different folks.

 

I want someone to know I'm there, right beside them, and then I punch em in the teeth while they were trying to do the same to me. To me, that's much more exciting than shooting down a guy I can't even see (although the more I do BVR in missions, the more I enjoy it).

[Saruman]

In modern era, if you enter dogfight you did something very wrong. BVR engagement dominates

[TAW_Blaze]

In modern era, if you enter dogfight you did something very wrong. BVR engagement dominates

 

I get what you mean but this generalization is wrong. It may occur that you don't have BVR missiles left, you want to jump the enemy, or you're just playing with your prey. Entering or pushing to a dogfight on it's own is not a wrong decision, entering or pushing into one at the wrong time or place is the bad decision. It takes a certain amount of skill and SA to understand when you can and when you can not.

[Buckeye]

In modern era, if you enter dogfight you did something very wrong. BVR engagement dominates

 

 

This is pretty much what I dream of getting into online (around 7:00 is where the action starts)...warning, it's Falcon BMS, but I would assume a similar situation is possible in DCS. I haven't watched the full video in a couple weeks, so my recollection isn't perfect, but from what I remember they misjudged or were misinformed of their mission surrounding and got surprised...obviously that's not perfect flying getting surprised, but Ralfi and his crew tend to know what they are doing and I wouldn't call it "terrible" flying.

 

Further, granted I am not great with the AIM120's (I am certain I don't know the full breadth of what they offer and their capabilities...or wtf I am really doing at all besides, lock on radar, wait for authorization, fire and follow the AoE), but I can pretty much only fire from 7-10nm...a good pilot will get away. Even my AI targets can usually get away. Soon thereafter, we are usually WVR, which is what I am looking for.

[TAW_Blaze]

This is pretty much what I dream of getting into online (around 7:00 is where the action starts)...warning, it's Falcon BMS, but I would assume a similar situation is possible in DCS. I haven't watched the full video in a couple weeks, so my recollection isn't perfect, but from what I remember they misjudged or were misinformed of their mission surrounding and got surprised...obviously that's not perfect flying getting surprised, but Ralfi and his crew tend to know what they are doing and I wouldn't call it "terrible" flying.

 

Not to disrespect those guys or anything but realisticly speaking if you got into a fight like that against human opponents your chances of survival are only mathematical.

Edited May 16, 2014 by <Blaze>

[Buckeye]

Last night I started reading Shaw's book and continued in on the F15 manual. I hope to make good progress on each over the weekend. Shaw's book is super interesting and the manual is very informative, so I think finishing and understand both of them will be very important in getting me up to speed.

 

Not to disrespect those guys or anything but realisticly speaking if you got into a fight like that against human opponents your chances of survival are only mathematical.

 

Yeah there's a lot going on, no real way to keep track of everything going on around you until they get the numbers evened out a bit.

 

That said...give me three months of practice, then if me and you ever got into something like that, we'd come out safe 100% of the time. :pilotfly:

[sorcer3r]

but from what I remember they misjudged or were misinformed of their mission surrounding and got surprised...obviously that's not perfect flying getting surprised,....

 

Dynamic Campaign = War = almost impossible to know what exactly will happen.

 

 

Not to disrespect those guys or anything but realisticly speaking if you got into a fight like that against human opponents your chances of survival are only mathematical.

 

I guess Ralfi is famous for his special missions. :D

[TAW_Blaze]

It's not just about keeping tabs on all of them, because they are so many no matter what you really do if you're already WVR you'll give up angles to a few of them. Even R-60s can be dangerous in those situations, you'll run out flares fast. Ideally you would stay on corner or above at all times and only take shots of opportunity while staying together with your wingmen. Those half loops and slow turns and whatnot are the easiest way of getting yourself killed.

[Buckeye]

It's not just about keeping tabs on all of them' date=' because they are so many no matter what you really do if you're already WVR you'll give up angles to a few of them. Even R-60s can be dangerous in those situations, you'll run out flares fast. Ideally you would stay on corner or above at all times and only take shots of opportunity while staying together with your wingmen. Those half loops and slow turns and whatnot are the easiest way of getting yourself killed.[/quote']

 

Thanks, as always Blaze for the valuable insight....makes total sense. Staying above and working together are good things for me to remember.

 

I was able to find the X55 HOTAS in stock online last night, so I should be getting that in next week -- previously I had a pre-order in with MPS that I was just waiting to have filled. I currently use the CH Fighterstick; while I don't dislike the stick, it feels a bit "loose" to me and I really hate not having a standalone throttle (yes I know I could've bought a CH throttle). Really looking forward to the X55 coming in.

 

Dynamic Campaign = War = almost impossible to know what exactly will happen.

 

How cool will it be when DCS gets Dynamic Campaign down the road?

Edited May 17, 2014 by =Buckeye=

[Buckeye]

I did not have as much free time available as I had hoped for reading more of Shaw's book over the weekend, but I am going to try to get some more reading in tonight. I am still not too far into it, but finding it very interesting...that said, I do think I will find increased value in it once I am more advanced in my skill level. I did, however, find some time to fly and I think things are coming along. The controls of the my flight are becoming much more natural feeling (i.e. I'm just flying, not thinking about flying), which is a big plus for me. I think I am slowly heading in the right direction...but still a very long way to go. Recently I have been focused on BVR using the nice tutorial series on YT. I will move back into the mastery of up-close guns only fighting later when I am more advanced.

 

Attached is a TacView of the "Instant Mission: F-15C Intercept" I just flew when I got home from the office. Playing with missiles is far too easy against the AI, any way to make them fight harder? Also, anyone who is willing to watch and give tips, your suggestions are always welcomed and appreciated...I'd recommend watching at 4x speed as it is a 7 min file.

Better.rar

[TAW_Blaze]

I'm not sure what your second AMRAAM did, either you still had the first guy locked or it just went full retard.

 

Anyway, first thing you did wrong is floating in contrails with no speed. It's only down to the stupidity of AI that you didn't die around 1:40. Contrailing is always a debate if you can afford to advertise your position - in this case, yes, because it's AI. Then it looks like you had tally on them or AWACS directed you and you turn behind them and mess them up with AAQ. As for keeping eyes on them and killing them fast with AAQ, you did good. Then the 29s spawn at 17nm and one of them fires a 27R on you which basically has no chance to hit. Due to lack of experience and having stuff spawned on you you overdefend it and recommit too late. If it wasn't for the damned AI sitting and watching you would have died. You killed one of the 29s at this point but you probably know there's another one left but you just jump the tutus and ignore the guy. Which works out because he just merged your wingman and decided to continue flying towards your base. Then he turns back and when you turn into him you're way too close, if he didn't throw away his lock trying to live he would have killed you.

 

Now that's more or less what you did wrong. What should have you done?

 

Based on the range to the first guy you climb to an altitude that still lets you to be at or above corner before the shooting starts. The last thing you want to do is fly 300 knots in a high altitude BVR fight. Kill both 23s head on with 2 slammers, do the same to the 29s, and then clean up the tutus. Or you can fight the tutus before the 29s, depends on how far they're spawned.

 

As a lot of others said it's probably better if you stick to BFM for a while. AI is specifically useless learning BVR.

[Buckeye]

I'm not sure what your second AMRAAM did, either you still had the first guy locked or it just went full retard.

 

Anyway, first thing you did wrong is floating in contrails with no speed. It's only down to the stupidity of AI that you didn't die around 1:40. Contrailing is always a debate if you can afford to advertise your position - in this case, yes, because it's AI. Then it looks like you had tally on them or AWACS directed you and you turn behind them and mess them up with AAQ. As for keeping eyes on them and killing them fast with AAQ, you did good. Then the 29s spawn at 17nm and one of them fires a 27R on you which basically has no chance to hit. Due to lack of experience and having stuff spawned on you you overdefend it and recommit too late. If it wasn't for the damned AI sitting and watching you would have died. You killed one of the 29s at this point but you probably know there's another one left but you just jump the tutus and ignore the guy. Which works out because he just merged your wingman and decided to continue flying towards your base. Then he turns back and when you turn into him you're way too close, if he didn't throw away his lock trying to live he would have killed you.

 

Now that's more or less what you did wrong. What should have you done?

 

Based on the range to the first guy you climb to an altitude that still lets you to be at or above corner before the shooting starts. The last thing you want to do is fly 300 knots in a high altitude BVR fight. Kill both 23s head on with 2 slammers, do the same to the 29s, and then clean up the tutus. Or you can fight the tutus before the 29s, depends on how far they're spawned.

 

As a lot of others said it's probably better if you stick to BFM for a while. AI is specifically useless learning BVR.

 

lol yeah, 2nd missile was a head scratcher for sure. I thought I was being sneaky flying above where their radar range would be, but you're right that a human pilot would be scanning up there at least periodically...and me being a noob, contrails didn't even cross my mind. They had me ECM jammed up until 10nm which is why I couldn't sequentially pick them off one after another in TWS with Aim 120's. You're 100% right that the 27 that fired on me I wasn't situationally aware enough to know he was out of kill range...that is something I need to improve on a lot (always having a mental mapping of where everyone is).

 

Your feedback is much appreciated man, you call out a lot of shit that I'm not well versed enough to pick on. Thank you.

[TAW_Blaze]

You're welcome. Btw, against a 23 you should have burnthrough well outside 20nm. If you were looking at jammer it was probably the tutus, but I'm not sure.

[Stuge]

Hey there Ace of Harts!

 

Since I managed to stumble on this forum today.. I can share some thoughts on dogfights.

 

I love them. Even if I nowadays fly mostly on BVR servers, I crave dogfights and sometimes try to get into one even if there's significant risk. The reward (high adrenaline dogfight that ends with a juicy gun kill) is easily worth it. I'll even take on two fighters at once without me having missiles, if i can surprise them. Just adds to the excitement. Fuel presents biggest problem to survival, dogfighting really consumes fuel fast.

 

Dogfights happen quite often in the DCS BVR environment. Missiles like to miss. People's situational awareness is limited. So is their ability to effectively scan the sky for bandits. Russian planes are able to search and track targets without giving off a warning. Tall mountains make reliable radar scanning of valleys impossible, giving great cover, leading to close encounters. AWACS also causes close encounters in the form of providing directions for intercept while your own radar is off(although these are often lethal to an unsuspecting high-flying victim)

 

The gun is your only weapon that, if your firing solution is optimal, will kill your target with 100% probability. A missile can always miss.

 

Even the best dogfighting missile, the R-73, is pretty much useless in a one-circle dogfight. You are better off getting a snapshot with your gun once you manage to get the advantage.. unless the target attempts to escape :)

 

You say you're a perfectionist and seem to like to study the subject. I am the quite the opposite. I like to do it by instinct, analyzing only when necessary(if i fail miserably and don't know why), or if it benefits someone else, like when trying to teach or explain something. I am not a bookworm by default. This has no doubt slowed my progress in some areas, maybe you will learn faster :) being a bookworm helps with learning hard facts that help you.

 

If you want 1 on 1 training, I will gladly provide some. Guns only, heatseekers, or BVR. With attempted constructive feedback of course :)

 

Don't be turned off if someone says dogfighting/guns are useless, obsolete or whatever.

 

To this day, owning all DCS modules, the most beautiful thing the sim has provided for me are still 1 on 1 guns only dogfights against an opponent that is of approximately my skill level. Such beautiful long dances, chases going to extreme altitudes, continuing with a vertical white double helix contrail (like DNA!), all the way down to <10m altitudes, perhaps only ending in a draw when both participants run out of fuel at the same time. :D

[*Rage*]

If you see me around im always up for some dogfight/guns only action. Gunzo was staple diet in Flanker 2.5 days:)

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Uploading my best of first 5 attempts ever @ this dogfighting stuff , against A.I .

 

It's a bit tougher than i thought, looks hilarious :megalol: At one point the A.I could even shoot me, weren't if for the fact that they literally ONLY fire if they have a 100% certain shot at you . They do not "spray" and damage you like humans do .

 

Biggest problems sofar are what i presume the basics :

Speed managment (!)

Manouvring without hud while looking out sidewindow

Edited June 25, 2014 by Maximus_Lazarus

[Buckeye]

I moved a little over 4 weeks ago and still have yet to get internet at my new place, brutal right? That is why I haven't been updating this thread as planned. I am glad the gentlemen below bumped the thread though, as I expect to have the issues resolved within a week and be back at it and posting flights for critique in here. Further, I plan to finally get online and fly with you fellas! I set a goal for myself of gaining acceptance into the 104th Phoenix Squadron...obviously a very tough goal, haha...so I have a lot of practicing and learning to do if I want to achieve that goal. Gotta aim for the stars with any goal!

 

Hey there Ace of Harts!

 

Since I managed to stumble on this forum today.. I can share some thoughts on dogfights.

 

I love them. Even if I nowadays fly mostly on BVR servers, I crave dogfights and sometimes try to get into one even if there's significant risk. The reward (high adrenaline dogfight that ends with a juicy gun kill) is easily worth it. I'll even take on two fighters at once without me having missiles, if i can surprise them. Just adds to the excitement. Fuel presents biggest problem to survival, dogfighting really consumes fuel fast.

 

Dogfights happen quite often in the DCS BVR environment. Missiles like to miss. People's situational awareness is limited. So is their ability to effectively scan the sky for bandits. Russian planes are able to search and track targets without giving off a warning. Tall mountains make reliable radar scanning of valleys impossible, giving great cover, leading to close encounters. AWACS also causes close encounters in the form of providing directions for intercept while your own radar is off(although these are often lethal to an unsuspecting high-flying victim)

 

The gun is your only weapon that, if your firing solution is optimal, will kill your target with 100% probability. A missile can always miss.

 

Even the best dogfighting missile, the R-73, is pretty much useless in a one-circle dogfight. You are better off getting a snapshot with your gun once you manage to get the advantage.. unless the target attempts to escape :)

 

You say you're a perfectionist and seem to like to study the subject. I am the quite the opposite. I like to do it by instinct, analyzing only when necessary(if i fail miserably and don't know why), or if it benefits someone else, like when trying to teach or explain something. I am not a bookworm by default. This has no doubt slowed my progress in some areas, maybe you will learn faster :) being a bookworm helps with learning hard facts that help you.

 

If you want 1 on 1 training, I will gladly provide some. Guns only, heatseekers, or BVR. With attempted constructive feedback of course :)

 

Don't be turned off if someone says dogfighting/guns are useless, obsolete or whatever.

 

To this day, owning all DCS modules, the most beautiful thing the sim has provided for me are still 1 on 1 guns only dogfights against an opponent that is of approximately my skill level. Such beautiful long dances, chases going to extreme altitudes, continuing with a vertical white double helix contrail (like DNA!), all the way down to <10m altitudes, perhaps only ending in a draw when both participants run out of fuel at the same time. :D

 

Thanks a lot man, once I am back online I will certainly take you up on the offer from some practicing! Any experience and pointers I can get will be great.

 

If you see me around im always up for some dogfight/guns only action. Gunzo was staple diet in Flanker 2.5 days:)

 

Thanks, dude! When I am able to connect online I will keep an eye out for you, or maybe I'll send a PM to see if we can decide on a time to meet up for you to kick my ass and teach me a few things :thumb:

 

Uploading my best of first 5 attempts ever @ this dogfighting stuff , against A.I .

 

It's a bit tougher than i thought, looks hilarious :megalol: At one point the A.I could even shoot me, weren't if for the fact that they literally ONLY fire if they have a 100% certain shot at you . They do not "spray" and damage you like humans do .

 

Biggest problems sofar are what i presume the basics :

Speed managment (!)

Manouvring without hud while looking out sidewindow

 

Yeah, man...keeping a clean visual on the bandit while also trying to fly tight turns and control speed is tough as first. I tend to still lose them far too often, especially when we space out a bit and they become super small on my 23" monitor. Keeping a "feel" for your planes position while looking back is very tricky at first but the more you fly, the easier it becomes. I found that quick glances forward out the HUD really help to make sure I'm heading where I think I am and don't cause me to lose visual tracking of the bandit.

 

Like you, I also struggle with my energy management (i.e. paying speed to gain altitude, and visa versa) but like anything, it is improving with time and practice.

Edited June 26, 2014 by =Buckeye=

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Don't listen too Stuge too much, he is terrible noob. :P

 

People are different i guess, but aren't you afraid all these goals and thick books are going to suck the fun right out of playing ?

I remember bringing my PS3 controller with me in the car and practicing backdash cancels in my lunch break.

I quit that game not long after. Felt more like work than playing. Pushed too hard and whoopsie no more fun !

 

Just get some internet and do some circle jerking with mr. Stuge, you'll learn a lot faster that way and it's a lot more fun.

He made me the very best BVR pilot in a matter of weeks . (I"M KIDDING MUAHAHAH DON"T FLAME ME BRO"S ! :D:D:D )

[=Pedro=]

I had a dogfight time with Stuge once. Now I am a PROZAK addict ;)

[Buckeye]

Don't listen too Stuge too much, he is terrible noob. :P

 

People are different i guess, but aren't you afraid all these goals and thick books are going to suck the fun right out of playing ?

I remember bringing my PS3 controller with me in the car and practicing backdash cancels in my lunch break.

I quit that game not long after. Felt more like work than playing. Pushed too hard and whoopsie no more fun !

 

Just get some internet and do some circle jerking with mr. Stuge, you'll learn a lot faster that way and it's a lot more fun.

He made me the very best BVR pilot in a matter of weeks . (I"M KIDDING MUAHAHAH DON"T FLAME ME BRO"S ! :D:D:D )

 

Nah, I like setting goals for myself on things...helps to keep me focused and make the best use of my time. The reading I've been doing has been at a slower pace than originally planned, but I'm still getting through it. I have fun whether I am working towards something or not, but setting lofty goals adds in another level of satisfaction (assuming I achieve them).

[Stuge]

 

Just get some internet and do some circle jerking with mr. Stuge

 

Max I admire how gracefully you took a thing of beauty and transformed it into something dirty...

[TAW_Blaze]

Keeping a "feel" for your planes position while looking back is very tricky at first but the more you fly, the easier it becomes. I found that quick glances forward out the HUD really help to make sure I'm heading where I think I am and don't cause me to lose visual tracking of the bandit.

 

Sit down for a while and think about how trackIR works. Based on where your head stands you should be able to more or less know what the plane is doing. Might need to glance at your HUD to see what's your speed though.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Max I admire how gracefully you took a thing of beauty and transformed it into something dirty...

 

Subtleness is the key.

[nwbasson]

Hi Ace,

 

I'm a total noob too and I'm still learning the F15 and a new HOTAS at the same time (lots of restarts) and I haven't flown online yet. I'm also not that huge into the theory. I will be willing cannon fodder if you want some practice, perhaps we can both learn a bit :D

[Maximus_Lazarus]

I'll dogfight the **** out of you .

 

But beware, as you can see my skills are amazing.

 

zgosJ0cD2y0

 

(This was actually the BEST of my first 5 attempts :megalol: )

 

Not sure if i'll ever grow to actually like this, i like BVR a lot more to be honest.