Couple of questions

[Maximus_Lazarus]

So, i've been trying some new stuff today and it isn't working

 

Question 1

 

How do i actually take advantage of "the notch" (god that term sounds so lame) .

 

I mean, at some point i have to turn to him to fire right ? When i'm only starting to turn back slightly, i get back on his radar and he has the advantage.

 

Also, you need to be lower than your enemy, another advantage for him.

 

Question 2

 

Defense manouvre, say a missile is launched at me from 20 nm, but i want to wait a bit and get closer. How do i QUICKLY defeat his missile while keeping him in my radar ?

[lunaticfringe]

(god that term sounds so lame)

 

That's what it looks like on the oscilloscope/waveform return output. Form begets functional terminology. Thus, to the trained and knowledgeable ear, it is both an accurate and useful term. If that's lame, then whatever.

 

I mean, at some point i have to turn to him to fire right ? When i'm only starting to turn back slightly, i get back on his radar and he has the advantage.

 

Why are you simply turning back in? There is more than one way into the notch, and more than one way to stay there and redefine your course of action.

 

Also, you need to be lower than your enemy, another advantage for him.

 

Properly modeled, you do not. The notch window as modeled currently is overdone; maneuvering there demands more precision than normally accounts for it. However, to get there, all you actually need is to decelerate to a relative closure rate within the window of his radar's rejection programming. That is all the notch is- a change in apparent velocity. Descending, depending on how one does it, invokes two things: first, a decrease in the amount of energy lost in making the rapid turn in, thereby giving more immediate flexibility in continued maneuver. Secondly, it begins to involve ground clutter in the equation so long as your respective altitudes carry enough separation; a poorly performed turn to the notch that never actually makes it, with enough descent, can still cover your tracks. Conversely, a poorly performed turn to the notch without enough separation to leave you in the ground clutter on its own still leaves you on his scope.

 

Question 2

 

Defense manouvre, say a missile is launched at me from 20 nm, but i want to wait a bit and get closer. How do i QUICKLY defeat his missile while keeping him in my radar ?

 

Unless a missile is decoyed essentially off the rail or sometime in it's flight, defeating one is not a fast process. Put the shooter on the gimbal limit and make the weapon work. The relative weapon position on the gimbal at 60 degrees is pretty much where you want it to be in the endgame defense. Depending on the weapon you're holding, you can still get an LA with a minor turn back, and put the opponent back on the gimbal before the opposing weapon goes active.

 

Then you defend normally.

[Ktulu2]

If you have time, this will make you understand clearly missiles, ECM, and if I remember some explications about notching

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=32019

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Excellent thread, i learned a lot today, simple stuff but VERY needed stuff. For instance i did NOT know that you only get an RWR warning if the bad guy is actually scanning you . (so sees you on his radar)

 

I always thought (for a LONG time actually), that a RWR warning was just pointing out "a" radar source. I did not know it was actually pointing out, that that radar was looking at YOU . Suddenly the RWR is 10x more usefull .

 

Another question, I was @ about 14k , doing full burners top speed with about 6 missiles , no tanks, and about half inner tank.

Tracking a dude who was @ 40k . I check my closure rate, and it says -212 . And he was CLIMBING.

 

I can't even reach beyond ... 350 (?) @ that altude. How did he get his speed so high ?

 

I'd love to see the tacview file of today, but of course, it's *(&&ÎNG borked ... AGAIN . And AGAIN while taxi-ing. (seriously WHAT is up with that after this patch !>?!>?!?!?!)

[TAW_Blaze]

It's a jet, the faster you go the faster it goes faster. Angels 30+ your acceleration can be poor at subsonic speeds but above M1 it doesn't take too long to reach M1.5+ if you don't have tanks. If you start climbing at M0.6 no wonder you won't do anything.

 

Here's the new F-15C manual, a lot of stuff were added related to the PFM.

 

http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/250300/manuals/F-15C%20DCS%20Flaming%20Cliffs%20Flight%20Manual%20EN.pdf?t=1398888119

 

To put it really simple, because at high altitude the air is a lot less dense, you need to go faster to have enough air go through the turbine. If you're really slow, you simply don't have enough air.

Edited May 24, 2014 by <Blaze>

[Maximus_Lazarus]

I can never get above 350 knots @ 40k, especially when also climbing

 

Gonna test now.

 

edit* Holy mother of christ, he must have had dropped all his missiles or something. F15 without missiles is CRAZY fast now :-O

 

Had no idea drag had been changed that much

Edited May 24, 2014 by Maximus_Lazarus

[TAW_Blaze]

It's fast with missiles too, just make sure you don't have those damned tanks :P

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Well yeah when the chase started i still had the tanks on. Then when i saw he was outrunning me (fast), even at that altitude i did drop them, but halted the chase soon after because i did not suspect it would make a big enough difference .

 

I guess i should have kept going :cry:

 

Next time tanks are coming of as soon as i need to do ANY kind of manouvring

 

OMG!

 

If a missile launch is detected, an audio launch warning will be heard. It will repeat itself every 15

seconds until the threat is gone.

 

I thought a NEW missile was fired everytime the launch sound was made !

 

This manual is epic. I think i'm gonna read it.

 

So, this must mean, that if i myself fire a missile, WAIT about 15 seconds, and fire another, my enemy might think it's an old missile ! RIGHT ?

 

100% fail-proof tactic ? -_-

Edited May 24, 2014 by Maximus_Lazarus

[TAW_Blaze]

I think your quote applies to SAM launches. Not quite sure, haven't looked at the manual for a few months.

 

If you drop tanks and you're a lot slower, well you probably still won't catch him if his running at full AB.

[SFJackBauer]

Excellent thread, i learned a lot today, simple stuff but VERY needed stuff. For instance i did NOT know that you only get an RWR warning if the bad guy is actually scanning you . (so sees you on his radar)

 

I always thought (for a LONG time actually), that a RWR warning was just pointing out "a" radar source. I did not know it was actually pointing out, that that radar was looking at YOU . Suddenly the RWR is 10x more usefull .

 

Wrong.

 

The RWR is pointing a radar source. Of course, if your RWR blinks, it is because some electromagnetic radiation has reached you.

 

Any basic physics knowledge can teach you that the RWR cannot know anything else than the arrival of a electromagnetic radiation of a certain frequency, with a certain power and from a certain direction. If you think that, with this information, the RWR could tell that, as you said, "that the radar was looking at YOU", then you need to think again.

 

And that does not mean that this electromagnetic radiation can go back to the emitter and indicate a target to him. For example, if you are in the notch, radar is being reflected from you to the original aircraft, but his radar computer is rejecting you. Therefore even with your RWR flashing, he can't see you.

 

Also the radar waves lose power as the square of distance. So its easier for an RWR to pick up a radar from afar, than a radar picking up a target.

 

All this is about reality though, and it could be that the some aspects of the in-game implementation do not follow reality.

[SFJackBauer]

So, this must mean, that if i myself fire a missile, WAIT about 15 seconds, and fire another, my enemy might think it's an old missile ! RIGHT ?

 

100% fail-proof tactic ? -_-

 

Again, you are approaching it with a "gamer" mentality of... "OMG I discovered this fail proof tactic", without taking time to understand the underlying system.

 

RWR keeps displaying a threat for a couple of seconds even after the emissions have stopped being detected. Why? Because it is not a precision instrument. It works with a filter, displaying emissions above a certain power and within a range of frequencies. Why? Because if it didn't used a filter, it would be flood with static and background radio noise.

 

The electromagnetic background is literally full of crap. If our eyes were able to see the entire spectrum, we would be blinded since there is EM radiation everywhere, from cell phones to TV stations to cosmic radiation. Looking at this POV, an RWR must be a fine instrument to be able to reject all the crap that is floating aroud us (in terms of EM radiation).

 

Now, imagine if two fighters are going head-on, some 100km distant, but separated by some mountains, so they do not have line-of-sight to each other. Fighter A turns the radar on, climb just a bit above the mountains and, quickly, descend again. The radar waves, during that split second, had time to travel to fighter B and back, but due to the distance, the return was so weak that fighter A sees nothing on his radar scope. Fighter B RWR, however, lights up. Now, if RWR only lighted up for the time it detected the radar waves, it would only blink for a fraction of second, and pilot B wouldnt be able to use this information. But since the RWR keeps displaying for a couple of seconds, even if pilot B was not looking directly at the RWR (scanning outside) he now can see there is a threat, and see its rough direction, and react accordingly.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

Wrong.

 

The RWR is pointing a radar source. Of course, if your RWR blinks, it is because some electromagnetic radiation has reached you.

 

Any basic physics knowledge can teach you that the RWR cannot know anything else than the arrival of a electromagnetic radiation of a certain frequency, with a certain power and from a certain direction. If you think that, with this information, the RWR could tell that, as you said, "that the radar was looking at YOU", then you need to think again.

 

And that does not mean that this electromagnetic radiation can go back to the emitter and indicate a target to him. For example, if you are in the notch, radar is being reflected from you to the original aircraft, but his radar computer is rejecting you. Therefore even with your RWR flashing, he can't see you.

 

Also the radar waves lose power as the square of distance. So its easier for an RWR to pick up a radar from afar, than a radar picking up a target.

 

All this is about reality though, and it could be that the some aspects of the in-game implementation do not follow reality.

 

Well yeah , when you get a RWR warning , the enemy SHOULD have you on his radar sight doesn't he ? Like, unless he has his range set to 20 miles, he should be seeing you.

 

That's what i meant by "looking at you", as in you are on his VSD.

 

Also, when you get locked up the RWR definately tells you someone is looking at you :d

 

p.s: Nice for the background info ! But i doubt all this is modeled into the game.

 

I think that in this game RWR warning simply means , that he can see you. (unless notch, but even than how can you be sure , best to assume he's able to see you)

Edited May 25, 2014 by Maximus_Lazarus

[Crescendo]

I think that in this game RWR warning simply means , that he can see you. (unless notch, but even than how can you be sure , best to assume he's able to see you)

 

That's just not true. You're taking a very simplistic view and are willfully ignoring what other people have tried to tell you.

 

One example: Your RWR will detect a fighter's radar emissions at >100 NM and display a threat symbol, but that fighter is far enough away that he won't have enough radar return to detect you.

 

Second example: In a tail-chase situation of >20 NM (or thereabouts), your RWR will easily detect an emitter behind behind you, but they will not be able to detect you even with the correct PRF setting.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

ok fair enough

[Sceptre]

That's just not true. You're taking a very simplistic view and are willfully ignoring what other people have tried to tell you.

 

One example: Your RWR will detect a fighter's radar emissions at >100 NM and display a threat symbol, but that fighter is far enough away that he won't have enough radar return to detect you.

 

Second example: In a tail-chase situation of >20 NM (or thereabouts), your RWR will easily detect an emitter behind behind you, but they will not be able to detect you even with the correct PRF setting.

 

I laughed pretty hard at your sig

[Frostie]

But i doubt all this is modeled into the game.

 

Of course it is.

[SFJackBauer]

Well yeah , when you get a RWR warning , the enemy SHOULD have you on his radar sight doesn't he ? Like, unless he has his range set to 20 miles, he should be seeing you.

 

That's what i meant by "looking at you", as in you are on his VSD.

 

Think of radar as underwater echoes. A submarine, standing still close to the ocean floor, can hear a ship "pinging" him, but not necessarily the ship, as a result of the pings, can detect the submarine. Since the sonar receiver on the ship has to reject and filter a whole bunch of underwater sounds, due to natural background noise and reverberation, it may end up rejecting a true echo from a submarine, which is (roughly, may I say, as I am being very primitive here in my analogy) what happens when you enter the notch.

 

Also, when you get locked up the RWR definately tells you someone is looking at you :d

 

Again, in reality, the RWR is actually saying to the pilot that a radar is focusing on him, since he is receiving EM radiation of the same frequency and power several times per second. That's what triggers the "locked" signal - the own RWR programming. There is no magic involved.

[GGTharos]

Well yeah , when you get a RWR warning , the enemy SHOULD have you on his radar sight doesn't he ? Like, unless he has his range set to 20 miles, he should be seeing you.

 

What exactly do you mean by 'warning'?

 

Do you mean that the RWR is indicating

 

- A radar in search mode

- A radar in STT mode

- A radar guided missile launch indication.

 

That's what i meant by "looking at you", as in you are on his VSD.

 

Also, when you get locked up the RWR definately tells you someone is looking at you :d

 

Ok, so a radar in any of the two above modes (the third one might not exist as a separate radar mode)

 

p.s: Nice for the background info ! But i doubt all this is modeled into the game.

 

Yes, it is.

 

I think that in this game RWR warning simply means , that he can see you. (unless notch, but even than how can you be sure , best to assume he's able to see you)

 

No, it doesn't. The RWR can pick up the bandit's radar signal from further away than the bandit can see you on his radar.

[GGTharos]

In reality it means that the aircraft is sitting inside or next to an STT radar beam. In practice, it's probably true that it is that aircraft being locked, but what if it's the wingman of the guy who's being locked? If he's flying 50m from his wingman at 30nm away, the beam covers both of them.

 

Yeah I know, I'm nitpicking :P

 

Again, in reality, the RWR is actually saying to the pilot that a radar is focusing on him, since he is receiving EM radiation of the same frequency and power several times per second. That's what triggers the "locked" signal - the own RWR programming. There is no magic involved.

[Maximus_Lazarus]

So i'm trying this blind spot against A.I ...

 

1) Is this about right ? Is this what those pesky mountain hiding migs are doing ?

 

2) Why on earth does the A.I climb when it's trying to get a lock on me ? This really baffles me.

 

eqaHavcpTmI

[TAW_Blaze]

Stop trying to learn BVR against AI. My cat would fly better BVR than them.

 

1) Is this about right ? Is this what those pesky mountain hiding migs are doing ?

 

To some extent yes, but the terrain lets them hide more effectively. In your video you notch far too long and to me it looks like you don't really understand how the radar/rwr works. Just to point out a few stuff, +-45 degrees is the limit, if you exceed that the rwr won't show anything (like, if you're level and there's a guy locking you directly below or on top of you, you won't get a warning, but if you bank hard you will). When using AAQ you want to do anything but look at the VSD. That just made me chuckle.

 

2) Why on earth does the A.I climb when it's trying to get a lock on me ? This really baffles me.

 

Because they are as dumb as it gets. AI is only good for one thing, to learn your own systems.

 

/this is not a judgement to who made the AI/

Edited May 25, 2014 by <Blaze>

[Maximus_Lazarus]

well yeah i was trying this notch thing so i just did it for as long as i could. Wasn't trying to kill him.

 

I thought the max angle was 30 degrees ? of the RWR , that's why i rock my wings every now and then -_-

 

I just figured, as long as i can see him on my RWR , i'm not out of this angle , right ? So if i can see him on my RWR, i should also get a lock tone if he manages to lock me again. At least that's what i thought.

 

And i think i was looking if my tanks were dropping when i switched to heat seaker , not so much VSD, ( i think :D )

 

I almost never use AAQ mode so who knows lol

[Maximus_Lazarus]

well yeah i was trying this notch thing so i just did it for as long as i could. Wasn't trying to kill him.

 

I thought the max angle was 30 degrees ? of the RWR , that's why i rock my wings every now and then -_-

 

I just figured, as long as i can see him on my RWR , i'm not out of this angle , right ? So if i can see him on my RWR, i should also get a lock tone if he manages to lock me again. At least that's what i thought.

 

And i think i was looking if my tanks were dropping when i switched to heat seaker , not so much VSD, ( i think :D )

 

I almost never use AAQ mode so who knows what i was doing lol

[Robin_Hood]

In reality it means that the aircraft is sitting inside or next to an STT radar beam. In practice, it's probably true that it is that aircraft being locked, but what if it's the wingman of the guy who's being locked? If he's flying 50m from his wingman at 30nm away, the beam covers both of them.

 

Yeah I know, I'm nitpicking :P

 

That's right, I never thought about that. I don't think this is modeled in DCS, or is it (if so, I'll be carefulnext time both my wingman and I are "spiked" at the same time).

[TAW_Blaze]

I thought the max angle was 30 degrees ?

 

For the russians.

 

I just figured, as long as i can see him on my RWR , i'm not out of this angle , right ? So if i can see him on my RWR, i should also get a lock tone if he manages to lock me again. At least that's what i thought.

 

Yes.