Can IR camera see through clouds?

[Emu]

Question time again.:D

[ФрогФут]

No.

[Invader ZIM]

Yea, what he said. :) To some extent they can, but not very much.

 

Watching an F-18 at an airshow with the Insight MTM thermal monocular. This is what qualifies as low quality thermal in the West, it's an uncooled 1x magnification sensor that's only 320x240 pixels.

 

You can see the clouds in the background.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ooSoz1Xnww

 

More professional thermal system watching the airshow at Farnborough. Watch when the planes go into afterburner.

 

Edited May 31, 2014 by Invader ZIM

[OutOnTheOP]

If you mean "infrared" in the literal scientific sense, then yes- far IR (in a couple wavelengths) can see through clouds (as long as they're not really thick clouds).

 

If you mean "infrared" in the military sense, then no: IR in that context means near-IR, while medium- and far-IR are generally called "thermal".

Edited May 31, 2014 by OutOnTheOP

[Emu]

If you mean "infrared" in the literal scientific sense, then yes- far IR (in a couple wavelengths) can see through clouds (as long as they're not really thick clouds).

 

If you mean "infrared" in the military sense, then no: IR in that context means near-IR, while medium- and far-IR are generally called "thermal".

Thanks, so is a FLIR pod near-IR?

 

...and.. stupid question - why don't they use far-IR?

Edited May 31, 2014 by Emu

[ФрогФут]

Thanks, so is a FLIR pod near-IR?

No. Usually mid or far.

[JayPee]

Can IR camera see through clouds?

 

Without getting unnecessary technical you can put it like this: there's night vision and there's thermal imaging (like FLIR). The first is merely image enhancement so whatever obstructs the actual image also obstructs the enhanced print. The latter is based purely on IR light, it can't see what we can see with our eyes, it can only distinguish between warm and cold reflection of objects. Hence it can see thru clouds and is often part of an all-weather sensor suite.

[ФрогФут]

it can only distinguish between warm and cold reflection of objects

Mid and far IR see object own radiation, not reflection.

Hence it can see thru clouds and is often part of an all-weather sensor suite.

Footage from FLIRs tells different.:)

[JayPee]

Do not confuse NVS and FLIR.

[Emu]

Okay:

 

http://www.flir.com/uploadedfiles/Eurasia/MMC/Tech_Notes/TN_0001_EN.pdf

http://www.acfr.usyd.edu.au/pdfs/training/sensorSystems/10Lec%20-%20Introduction%20to%20Radiometry.pdf

 

So I've come to understand that some targeting pods are NIR (LITENING) and some are MWIR (Sniper XR). Missile seekers are nearly always MWIR according to the above.

[JayPee]

Getting a 404 on the second link, can you attach the pdf manually?

[Emu]

Getting a 404 on the second link, can you attach the pdf manually?

Here.

10Lec - Introduction to Radiometry.pdf

[ФрогФут]

 

So I've come to understand that some targeting pods are NIR (LITENING)

 

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/7/477.pdf

FLIR Sensor Resolution - see note* , 3-5μ FPA

[Headspace]

There are FLIR systems that can see through clouds. They're used for instrument work and flying at night.

 

They are showing up now in the GA marketplace:

 

 

It's a long-wave IR camera.

[Nightmare515]

Question time again.:D

 

They can to some extent it depends on how thick the clouds are. While flying at night using the PNVS FLIR camera plenty of pilots have accidentally punched into some thin clouds while not even noticing. I actually did it about 3 weeks ago myself. IP kept saying we needed to drop altitude because he couldn't see due to the cloud layer yet everything looked perfectly clear in the FLIR.

[xxJohnxx]

FedEx mounted some IR systems on some of their planes.

 

Here is a report about FedEx beeing allowed to use them in their MD-11/MD-10.

 

Click

 

Further down the page they also have some comparison shots.

 

Here some video of an MD-11's HUD:

 

 

And here you can see the modification the made to the outside of the plane to mount the camera:

 

 

Beauty!

[Emu]

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_STORAGE/FILES/7/477.pdf

Okay, well I've learnt something and the answer to my question is, "maybe.":D

[Eddie]

Okay, well I've learnt something and the answer to my question is, "maybe.":D

 

I'd say "it depends" is the more accurate answer. As with so many things in military aviation.

[SimFreak]

I don't know any passive device that can see through moisture...

 

But maybe I'm wrong....

[WildBillKelsoe]

wow that video.. ooooooooooohhhhh!!!! what a precise landing!

[Weta43]

looking at that air-show video & seeing just how much contrast there is between even the skin of the aircraft (never mind the exhaust plume) and the background, you've got to wonder about just how stealthy can an F-22 (or any other aircrat) be to a modern EOS...

[Rangi]

looking at that air-show video & seeing just how much contrast there is between even the skin of the aircraft (never mind the exhaust plume) and the background, you've got to wonder about just how stealthy can an F-22 (or any other aircrat) be to a modern EOS...

 

 

Yes but at what range? Any reduction in IR signature is going to reduce the distance at which such sensors can spot you.

[Emu]

I'd say "it depends" is the more accurate answer. As with so many things in military aviation.

 

looking at that air-show video & seeing just how much contrast there is between even the skin of the aircraft (never mind the exhaust plume) and the background, you've got to wonder about just how stealthy can an F-22 (or any other aircrat) be to a modern EOS...

It depends.:D

[Invader ZIM]

Rangi is right.

 

There is a big disparity in the capbabilites in Western Thermal systems vs. Russian/Chinese systems currently.

 

For example, if we take some the following modern Russian IRST system specs here:

 

Mig 29K/KUB and Mig 35 OLS UE IRST

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdSI/StWe7Hk_9mI/AAAAAAAAAgg/8v0NFnL12PA/s1600-h/14.10.2009+11-47-48_0029.jpg

 

 

It's claimed capability to detect an unstealthy Su-30 coming towards it is only up to 15km..... Dangerously close to an Amraam equipped F-35 or F-22 IMO.

 

An Su-30 heading away, showing it's engine plumes can only be seen at up to 60km.

 

 

This is the company brochure for the Su-35 IRST.

 

http://defenseissues.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/qrkpwi.jpg

 

Slightly better performance, an Su-35 sized target heading to it can be seen from 35km. Which is only 21 miles.

 

You get a stealth aircraft that has some IR reduction at range, and that 21 miles shrinks further, making the IRST a liability in being the main source of detection of such aircraft.

 

 

By contrast, published info on the Pirate IRST used in the Typhoon here: http://www.bmlv.gv.at/truppendienst/ausgaben/artikel.php?id=807

 

indicates it can see a subsonic target coming toward it at 90km. Heading away, at 150km. Big leap in performance.

 

 

Here's an example of a Thales UK thermal sight, used in various vehicles, with target tracking software, skip to 2:00 in to see what aircraft and an apache look like through it.

 

For fun, to get an idea of just how clear some of these Western systems can see, put the resolution up to the highest in the video, and realize that the drone in the video is watching relatively cool temperature human beings against various warm backgrounds, which is a worst case, low contrast image versus a high contrast hot plane against cool sky scenario. The Laser Rangefinder data is in the upper right.

 

 

 

When you can see a man flicking the ashes from his cigarette at over 3km, or pick out human targets at over 17km against a 90 degree desert, or read the signs that to a lesser thermal system would show up blank, your doing pretty good. :D

 

 

Here's a SPAAG Gepard tracking a Banshee drone with it's Puma Thermal system, range to target in the video is 5,300 meters, but over 6km at the beginning. It's engaged with a neighboring Stinger missile.

 

Mantis AA system engaging small drones, some thermal views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0_XUS0Sfpg

Edited June 2, 2014 by Invader ZIM

[xxJohnxx]

Though the IRST vs. stealth fighter is a difficult story. The big advantage is that it is passive. You don't know that the aircraft is there. For the stealth fighter now to see the aircraft, it has to use it's radar, giving away the stealth benefit. The stealth figther also has to continusly emit to allow for target search. The IRST can run for the whole time without emitting anything.