Dogfighting in the F-15C.

[GGTharos]

No, it won't. The flanker will handily outclimb an eagle from low and slow. The Eagle will see significant gains at medium altitude AND at the right speed.

 

A Eagle will out climb a Flanker at ANY altitude.

[USARStarkey]

No, it won't. The flanker will handily outclimb an eagle from low and slow. The Eagle will see significant gains at medium altitude AND at the right speed.

 

Except it will. The Eagle has a better T/W at any altitude at any comparable fuel load.

[USARStarkey]

Just as a comparison here is what DCS has to say about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVH4FiaSWqA&feature=youtube_gdata

 

Note: it took about a half second longer for the F-15 to get its afterburner going, which is why it doesnt start overtaking the Flanker until 1700ft or so. Aircraft are set to equal fuel weight in lbs. Both aircraft started at 100ft and 150kts. I also did the comparison based on fuel weight as a function of time. The Flanker consumes more gas than the eagle per unit of time(based on testing at constant altitude at both 10000ft and sea-level.) and requires 15,000lbs of fuel to fly the same amount of time as a 100% fuel eagle. when I did the test like this, the Eagle won by a even larger measure.

Edited July 9, 2014 by USARStarkey

[Stuge]

GG, I understand your point perfectly :) If I remember correctly, in Falcon 4 it was a really bad idea to even try dodging AMRAAMs. They hit you reliably from quite a long range, and there was no varied enough terrain to really hide well. DCS is different in that way...

 

Except that they get their ass kicked a /lot/ more frequently.

 

This is quite true. The reason I like to take risks in combat is to a) get more action time (vs straight-and-level time) and much more importantly b) get more interesting and possibly unique situations, which may not arise if I choose to bug out too early. Some nice memorable moments have formed this way...

 

One could argue that more action time will hone certain aspects of your combat skills better, no? :)

 

There is no "right way" to approach this sim.. it's about what you want it to be.

[USARStarkey]

Speaking of specific tactics for the F-15, I would always try to play to T/W. If your at corner, or going fast, you can out turn the Flanker, but you run the risk of it getting slow if the fight goes too long as has already been stated. If you mess up and get one on your tail I like to try one of two things. I have had quite a bit of success with the following.

 

If you are certain that the fight is guns only( which is difficult to determine) an easy way to lose a Flanker in a F-15 at any altitude is to just climb straight up. Before you do this, make sure you have about .7 to .8 nm or more between you and the bandit, otherwise he will just gun you down in the climb. The Flanker will always stall first. One he does, roll over and kill him. Even if you fail to capitalize, this can end up putting the fight at high altitude where you have a even bigger T/W advantage.

 

If they have missiles(ir) what I have found works is to first accelerate to about 600-800 knots where you can start high speed turn. Speed gives you energy needed to dodge missiles or keep them out of parameters. If the Flanker tries to duck inside by bleeding speed, take advantage of the energy loss and come over the top. If not, keep in the turn until you gain advantage. Its quite hard to describe in words here what I mean. So it probably sounds stupid. Ill work on a Tacview track to demonstrate.

[Bushmanni]

Forget all this internet stuff, go straight to the very basic BFM training taught by the USN.

 

No, it isn't complete and it doesn't tell you everything - and you really want to have an instructor come with it. But it's a whole lot better than many other things out there.

 

http://www.cnatra.navy.mil/pubs/folder5/t45/p-1289.pdf

 

GG, would you recommend doing the practice scenarios as described or modifying PADS in some way for simulator F-15? I have a suspicion that there might be some compromises to get safe real world training tailored for T-45.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Bushmanni

[GGTharos]

Certainly modify the speeds and AoAs to be more representative of an F-15 in combat. Safety is paramount for both aircraft, something we don't deal with in the game.

 

GG, would you recommend doing the practice scenarios as described or modifying PADS in some way for simulator F-15? I have a suspicion that there might be some compromises to get safe real world training tailored for T-45.

[Skall]

Speaking of specific tactics for the F-15, I would always try to play to T/W. If your at corner, or going fast, you can out turn the Flanker, but you run the risk of it getting slow if the fight goes too long as has already been stated. If you mess up and get one on your tail I like to try one of two things. I have had quite a bit of success with the following.

 

If you are certain that the fight is guns only( which is difficult to determine) an easy way to lose a Flanker in a F-15 at any altitude is to just climb straight up. Before you do this, make sure you have about .7 to .8 nm or more between you and the bandit, otherwise he will just gun you down in the climb. The Flanker will always stall first. One he does, roll over and kill him. Even if you fail to capitalize, this can end up putting the fight at high altitude where you have a even bigger T/W advantage.

 

If they have missiles(ir) what I have found works is to first accelerate to about 600-800 knots where you can start high speed turn. Speed gives you energy needed to dodge missiles or keep them out of parameters. If the Flanker tries to duck inside by bleeding speed, take advantage of the energy loss and come over the top. If not, keep in the turn until you gain advantage. Its quite hard to describe in words here what I mean. So it probably sounds stupid. Ill work on a Tacview track to demonstrate.

 

This is the kind of advice I'm looking for. I would greatly appreciate it if you could put a tacview track or replay.

 

Here's a silly request for either you or anyone who wants to volunteer: can anyone put up a replay of an F-15 doing a well executed tight, fast turn at corner?

 

Sometimes I just fly around a bit to get a hang of the bird, build up speed to just above corner (~470) and start a turn (usually nose low), gradually building up the Gs. I find that the horizon spins by a lot quicker at speeds much lower than corner and that I can't hold 9gs without the screen going completely black. Usually find myself only being able to hold 7-8gs.

 

Contrast this to an ironhand video I recently saw where he executes a turn at corner in a Flanker and it's impressive how fast he was able to turn. Too bad the video was so low-res that I couldn't see the numbers on the HUD or gauges.

[USARStarkey]

Ill put something up later. :)

[Altimaden]

please do starkey, i would also appreciate it. your advice is very helpful.

i've got a question, i'm trying to change my mindset towards survival - it's working and it's not. I live more and get to do more landings :P but i'm firing more range shots and missing more, and getting less kills...

recently i've been approaching head on 1v1 this way:

see bandit from around 60nm, (ecm on or not, depends on situation), approach head on, if he's high, i'll get just below vape trails with ecm on, if he's mid to low, ill approach around the 12 to 15 thousand foot mark, depending on terrain. i like to be on the low side as it puts his radar looking down and if i need to dive into the hills, i'm a little closer. I'll close to the 20nm mark, get LA but wait until something like 18nm to make the p.k. a little better. i fire and crank, with liberal c.m. and 'soft' maneuvering get to around the 12 to 10nm separation and turn in, fire two more, wait until pitbull (usually not long) then break off, turn tail and extend. if i've left my turn a bit late, ill split s to get some speed up. Point is i'm left tail on with something close to 10nm separation from bandit. if the bandit defeats my missiles (happens too often! lag maybe? doesn't matter why, really) and gives chase, i'll be stuck in an extension until my fuel runs out or something friendly helps me (barring useful terrain).

Once, while in an extension with low fuel, one 120C left, and a bit of range to play with, i pulled an immelmann, as i was coming over the vertical i picked up the bogey on my radar screen straight away, got to parameters, fired and did a split s. missile warnings going off c.m. blazing away and with some maneuvering i got the kill and survived. very satisfying.

i was just wondering, i suppose pulling that off was dependent on a whole heap of factors such as having the extra range in the extension to play with, picking him up early on my scope...i guess my question is: is there a way, or an approach to breaking out of an extension? the best defense is a good offence, right?

[Higgeh]

 

I don't know if I should post this here, but I'd be very grateful if any of you guys could critique my flying here or redirect me. It's hard to see, but the first guy on my six overshoots at high speed into the mountain.

[Bushmanni]

Your speed management wasn't very good as you were often trying to turn at very slow speed while corner speed turn would have been better but fortunately your enemies were even worse at it. When defensive you should use your energy for defense but when you are behind the bandit you should try to optimize your turn rate until you can pull your nose to gun solution (then you bleed speed to end the fight). Corner speed isn't magic solution to every turning problem but in the basic circle flying turning contest it will help you to drive into the enemy six (or at least keep him out of yours). It would do you good to read about pursuit curves and some basic aerodynamics. Check the pdf behind the link. You were able to keep your eyes on the enemy really good.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2110584&postcount=20

[Higgeh]

I knew I had an energy advantage, so most of the slow speed parts were me trying to get altitude advantage over the enemy, so I could pull down across his circle for snapshot. That was the plan anyway lol. Would I be better to keep good airspeed in the climb and increase my net energy, or keep my net energy constant and be slow at high altitude? I just fear the former might give away too many angles by relaxing g.

[GGTharos]

How about fighting just one bandit so you can learn something instead of three bandits and basically not doing much?

 

If you met a capable 2-ship, you'd have been gunned down 20-45 sec after the merge without getting any shots off.

 

AI aren't that much of a challenge after a while, and you going for snapshots instead of trying to saddle up tells me that you can't figure out turn circles or that you are are too impatient.

 

Ponder on that :)

[Higgeh]

They weren't AI lol, and I wanted 1v1. Just didn't have choice there. I can fight for separation, lead turn at corner, lag to entry window and pull g's for the control zone, but that only works against other f-15s. If I try that against an su-33 he will win the rate war. I should have mentioned that I aim for low angle off snapshots and that I can saddle up with moderate high yo-yos.

[GGTharos]

Oh snap :D

[Higgeh]

lol. I played a lot of bms before this, but that only really had f-16 mirror matches. I'm quite new to these mixed match ups.

[Frostie]

Don't take the Flankers down low in a slow fight, you want to keep it high up where the F-15 has more, plus you can extend for separation because of the speed advantage. That being said the Su33 is a bit of a pig compared to the Su27 though the 33 pilot in the vid doesn't look like he has a clue on how to use the aircrafts full potential.

If you run into two bandits like this and don't make a quick kill immediately it's best to get out of there for a reset.

[Higgeh]

Do I really have a say at which altitude the fight takes place?

 

If he decides to perform some low yo-yos, won't the fight get dragged down low? And if I don't counter, won't the altitude difference get too great and allow him the opportunity to point at me for a shot?

 

I included the acmi file for clarity if anyone is interested. You can see the energy states far more clearly. The first fight wasn't in the video, but it's just me cautiously forcing a one circle fight because he comes screaming in at the merge.

 

Sorry if I'm being a pain btw, it just gets very frustrating trying to figure this stuff out on your own :(, so I appreciate all replies.

Tacview_dgft.zip

Edited July 23, 2014 by Higgeh

[FLANKERATOR]

Tricky Su-33, he tried set you up for a 2 circle with that high speed merge, then went for radius instead. Idea was good but poorly executed as his timing was off.

Assuming it was well executed, counter would be to keep your energy advantage by spiraling up then coming down on him as he starts running out of speed. If he's good, seeing you not rising to the bait, he'd extend away.

Sustained rate is always better than radius assuming you don't rise to the bait and recognize the situation soon enough. Aside from my 2 cents, you have nice skills and good potential.

[Higgeh]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't think of it as him tricking me into a one circle. Sneaky lol.

 

But yeah, I do like to keep some speed in scissors and just monitor his angular gains at each pass, then spiral zoom if he does pull too hard.

[FLANKERATOR]

Thanks for the advice. I didn't think of it as him tricking me into a one circle. Sneaky lol.

 

But yeah, I do like to keep some speed in scissors and just monitor his angular gains at each pass, then spiral zoom if he does pull too hard.

 

Maybe he didn't do that on purpose, but according to the acmi, he was closing in over 800kts with minimal lateral separation, and started turning way after the merge so maybe he was looking over his shoulder to see which way you'd go to force a 1 circle. Problem is that he forgot to hit the brakes early enough and ended up with a large turn radius. Timing issue I'd say.

 

On a side note, always keep some lateral room and deflection at the merge, otherwise, fight could end before it starts if you see what I mean ;)

 

You're clearly not a newbie, good energy management again :)

[drsgfire]

One good thing you can do at the merge on a rookie opponent is to start your turn in before the merge. The pilot that starts his turn first will usually end up with the advantage. Be careful though as if you turn way to early your opponent can turn out and slow down and turn back in quickly and be in on you tail pretty quick.

[Higgeh]

Just want to go down on record as saying I didn't intend to fly so fast at times, especially near the end when I was low on fuel. My setup is rather cumbersome: Left hand for mouse (free look) and throttle, and right hand for joystick. Feels like I'm operating a Fotoplayer at times lol.

[drsgfire]

Yea that will make it difficult. I would highly recommend picking up a trackir unit. Make a world of difference in your experience. Especially if you want to be persistent in dogfighting.