Nosewheel steering responsivness

[Sabredog]

The nosewheel steering on the F-86F seems a lot less responsive than on the A-10. The delay between your feet pressing rudder pedals and the aircraft actually moving is so great that it is extremely difficult to taxi without constantly over and under correcting.

[Foul Ole Ron]

You have to anticipate. Start to make your turn and then about half way through centre your rudder pedals but keep holding down the NWS and it'll result in you then going straight as the wheel centres itself.

[Sabredog]

Is the Sabre really this awkward to taxi in real life though? Seems kind of counter intuitive. I hope the ground handling is still WIP.

[Foul Ole Ron]

It's really not that awkward once you get used to it. I don't know how close to reality - from reading this page it does sound sensitive and probably takes a RL pilot a little while to get used to:

 

http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/145/language/fr-FR/520-Knots-Baby-Hawk-Ones-First-Flight.aspx

 

It's an early 50s design - stands to reason it's not going to be as effective or well-designed as the A10-C.

[Skall]

Hmm, I haven't had much difficulty taxiing with the Sabre. I do have a ~15 point curve on my rudder axis so that might be why. Taxiing the P-51 on the other hand...

[effte]

The nose wheel steering (NWS) isn't delayed, as I perceive it. It is, however, very, very slow indeed, i e the rate of movement is very low. This can easily bring you into PIO hell on a fast taxi or on the T/O roll. While it could theoretically be that slow in the actual aircraft, I find it hard to believe.

 

Here's a clip (admittedly of a D/K) which to me shows the NWS being a lot faster (6:37 in), as could be expected - especially as he straightens out the steering.

 

 

This clip, @ 13:55, shows rather crisp movement of the NWS.

 

 

I think this could do with being looked into. Devs listening?

 

Cheers,

/Fred

[159th_Viper]

The nosewheel steering on the F-86F seems a lot less responsive than on the A-10. The delay between your feet pressing rudder pedals and the aircraft actually moving is so great that it is extremely difficult to taxi without constantly over and under correcting.

 

Herewith In-SIM footage captured with 1.2.9: Note that second half is In-Cockpit view with the Controls Indicator enabled so that rudder pedal inputs can be compared to plane behaviour.

 

Pedals are at Linear/Default: No Curvature/Saturation adjustment.

 

**Disclaimer: This is the very first time I have taxied with NWS in the Sabre. As such results are not indicative of lengthy time spent behind the wheel, so to speak**

 

MomyoXEheT8

 

Having due regard to the footage, what exactly is/are the perceived issue/s? Kindly advise (preferably with reference to vid timeline) so I can investigate further/report if necessary.

[effte]

Steps to reproduce:

 

1) Activate NWS.

2) Move pedals from side to side.

3) Observe rate of movement of nose wheel.

 

Compare with real world, if possible. Otherwise, review tech data available, operational impact and evaluate plausibility.

[159th_Viper]

Steps to reproduce:

 

1) Activate NWS.

2) Move pedals from side to side.

3) Observe rate of movement of nose wheel..

 

Honestly?

 

Watch the vid and comment on In-SIM behaviour. Highlight perceived issues with due regard to the time-line and post them here. Doing so will allow me to investigate further.

 

Telling me to 'Compare with real world, if possible. Otherwise, review tech data available, operational impact and evaluate plausibility' helps sweetblowfcukall at this stage in proceedings.

 

Kindly do as requested :)

 

In any event, comparing RL footage as per your vids and the vid from In-SIM I am at a loss to differentiate: All seems as it should be, which is why I kindly request that In-SIM footage be analysed and commented upon first ;)

Edited August 6, 2014 by 159th_Viper
Typo

[Sabredog]

Try this:

 

- Begin to taxi forward

- Hold NWS button

- Apply full left rudder

- Release NWS button

- Wait for aircraft to straighten out

- Apply full right rudder

- Hold NWS button

 

The aircraft will swerve left again BEFORE beginning to turn right. Very strange behaviour.

[Sabredog]

There is a perceptible sluggishness to the F-86's NWS in sim that is not present with with any other aircraft. Try making some faster, snaking turns and you can FEEL it.

[159th_Viper]

Try this:

 

- Begin to taxi forward

- Hold NWS button

- Apply full left rudder

- Release NWS button

- Wait for aircraft to straighten out

- Apply full right rudder

- Hold NWS button

 

The aircraft will swerve left again BEFORE beginning to turn right. Very strange behaviour.

 

Might very well be, but that is another topic entirely.

 

Your original post dealt with the question of responsiveness while NWS is engaged. We need to deal with that matter only - does more harm than good heaping up multiple perceived issues per thread/post :)

[159th_Viper]

There is a perceptible sluggishness to the F-86's NWS in sim that is not present with with any other aircraft. Try making some faster, snaking turns and you can FEEL it.

 

Based on what?

 

We need corroborative evidence, not perception. I cannot submit a bug report based on a feeling. As stated, visually comparing RL vids to In-SIM vids yields no apparent distinction. Do you have access to RL footage of a Sabre doing 'snaking turns' per chance?

[effte]

Try this:

 

- Begin to taxi forward

- Hold NWS button

- Apply full left rudder

- Release NWS button

- Wait for aircraft to straighten out

- Apply full right rudder

- Hold NWS button

 

The aircraft will swerve left again BEFORE beginning to turn right. Very strange behaviour.

 

Reported here.

[Sabredog]

At 7:37 in the video you make a sharp right turn, evidenced by the controller window. There s a good 1-2 second delay between your input and the aircraft beginning to turn. This is the lack of responsiveness I am talking about. It is much greater than any other aircraft in DCS.

[159th_Viper]

This is the lack of responsiveness I am talking about. It is much greater than any other aircraft in DCS.

 

Is that not to be expected from a 1950's era aircraft? Cannot compare to other DCS aircraft when attempting to rationalise behaviour.

[effte]

If a report of a possible issue cannot be comprehended without reference to a Youtube video, please produce a video suitable for referencing the problem as previously described.

 

Even though the pressure is reduced to 800-1100 psi, it shouldn't be that sluggish. Besides, it is causing operational issues which is an indication that all may not be right. That's not 'feeling', that's familiarity with similar systems speaking.

 

Hence, it should be looked into to determine if it is correct or not. If you have access to a real aircraft, as I assume the developers do, it can be done in a jiffy. We're here to try to make this as good as it can get, right? So why not put it on the watchlist. If the research is in place showing that it is indeed correct, the issue can be set to resolved/no action with next to no effort. If not, well, then it should be on the watchlist.

[Sabredog]

Is that not to be expected from a 1950's era aircraft? Cannot compare to other DCS aircraft when attempting to rationalise behaviour.

 

I would not expect ANY aircraft to have a 1-2 second delay between a control input and response. Also, hydraulic systems are usually very responsive. Look at the other control surfaces and air brakes for example. There is no perceptible delay between input and response. This is definitely an issue, please acknowledge it.

[159th_Viper]

This is definitely an issue, please acknowledge it.

 

I do. I would not be posting otherwise.

 

My intention is to elicit substantive documentary proof, if possible, of all perceived issues. The reason for this is not for me trying to be a hard-a$$ but rather to enable me to submit a comprehensive bug report to the Devs in order to get the matter fixed asap. Now with that in mind and further keeping in mind that there are literally thousands of reports dealing with ALL DCS products, you will understand that a report based on a 'feeling' will not merit immediate investigation and be treated with the same urgency as a report that I can substantiate and argue with the Devs on your behalf by having regard to hard, documentary evidence.

 

Do you see now why I press and press in an attempt to get ALL available info/documents? I'd rather drag a thread out for three pages ensuring I have done all I can to build an airtight case than report it on the first post.

 

That said, I'll report the matter 'as is', based on your 'response delay vs hydraulic system responsiveness' observations.

[Sabredog]

I wish I had access to more videos/documents but unfortunately, short of actually jumping into a real F-86F and playing around with the nosewheel steering I can't conclusively prove anything.

 

At the end of the day, when it comes to flight dynamics and ground handling all we can do is take a best guess and hope the guys at Belsimtek got the maths right. Thanks for reporting the issue though.

[effte]

Thank you.

 

I don't think anyone considers it high-priority or expects a quick fix at this point in time. There are bigger fish to fry right now.

 

While bug reports with full documentation (and perhaps even a suggested fix) is of course the dream for those of us who are developers, a reported potential bug without full documentation is better than a potential issue never reaching us.

 

Then there's the factor that I'm doing this in my spare time, which means every minute spent researching is a minute less to spend with my son, be out on the bike, go flying for real or, for that matter, enjoy the DCS product I bought. While I do enjoy the research immensely - after all, aircraft is not only my profession but also one of my main interests - there comes a point where it gets slightly annoying to nag for a potential issue to get acknowledged by those I pay for a product which has technical accuracy as its main selling point. If you started out with "I will report it, but can you provide more detail", I'd be less annoyed and more inclined to spend my time helping. You do appear a hard-a$$ at times. :)

 

Cheers,

/Fred

[159th_Viper]

You do appear a hard-a$$ at times. :)

 

Apologies.....those 7 years in Law school did me no favours :)

[jay43]

For the record i have learnt that until its fixed if its not how it should be that is.

 

In the use of the NWS for the F86f LESS IS MORE in its case small adjustments.

[billeinstein]

I think it's one of the most important issues. A NWS system to make taxiing more difficult than without it is quit strange.

[159th_Viper]

Update:

 

What I also neglected to mention in my earlier posts is that 'feelings' often get beaten down worse than the proverbial red-headed stepchild, thus wasting a helluva lot of time taken in the reporting process.......my bad.

 

That said, as fate would dictate, this is incidentally exactly what happened here, illustrating again the importance of corroborating reports/potential issues with substantive documentary evidence.

 

The relevant Dev has confirmed that the F-86 Sabre nose-wheel actuator has a maximum speed/set time it traverses from extreme left to extreme right, and visa versa, said time being 4 seconds. As such the behaviour In-SIM is spot-on and accords with the afore-said time, ie no bug/correct as modelled.

 

That said, if anyone has any information other than a subjective feeling which factually contradicts the Dev's statement then please get it to me so we can reopen the report. Until then, NWS responsiveness is as intended.