Very small point = cosmetic

[VIMANAMAN]

I'm no WWII Luftwaffe expert and don't pretend to be one...

 

But I've spent many hours today trying to find good period photos of the D9 cockpit A-frame (from the rear), and I haven't found anything conclusive...

 

Detailed info on the D9 is extremely sparse. This makes me think even more that a referencing error has been made (hardly surprisingly).

 

But my sense is, from what I've been looking at is that until the pressurised cockpit came along with the T152, the A-Frame design stayed pretty much the same (if not exactly the same) despite the engine changes, etc between the A's, C's and D's...

 

(Illustrations not conclusive as first two images are both the A-8 version & then the museum piece with the wooden baton) I'll keep trying to find a nugget.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=104063&stc=1&d=1409867275

 

I'm all ears to anyone with more knowledge than me, but it looks like it should be an all metal construction to me.

Edited September 4, 2014 by VIMANAMAN

[VIMANAMAN]

You do something else for a bit, then you look again, and voila...

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=104067&stc=1&d=1409872698

 

Not totally conclusive by any means but 1940's photography seldom is...

 

This is a photo of Major Gerhard Barkhorn Commander of JG6 in a FW190D9 (looks pretty clear to me).

Edited September 7, 2014 by VIMANAMAN

[rrohde]

Good. So there's no wooden piece attached to a production FW-190 D. How do we convey this to ED so they can improve their 3D model?

[26-J39]

Ed's ext model looks ok tho..

 

 

The wooden piece doesn't seem to be there.... Correct me if i'm wrong.. :)

 

Edited September 5, 2014 by 26-J39

[rrohde]

Ed's ext model looks ok tho..

 

Yes, the external model is all fine and dandy. :)

[rrohde]

Small composite screenshot I've made (see attached).

 

Left side - 190 cockpit with the all-metal A-frame, right side - 190 cockpit with the questionable piece of wood mounted on top of the metal A-frame.

 

The current DCS FW-190 D should be remodeled without the added wooden piece.

Edited September 5, 2014 by rrohde

[VIMANAMAN]

Small composite screenshot I've made (see attached).

 

Left side - 190 cockpit with the all-metal A-frame, right side - 190 cockpit with the questionable piece of wood mounted on top of the metal A-frame.

 

The current DCS FW-190 D should be remodeled without the added wooden piece.

 

Rrohde your're a man of many talents! - nice one, seriously man, nice work there - yes that's pretty much as I envisage the actual production version of the D9. Sorry for the delayed reply.

 

But we ought to present as much good 'evidence' as pos for ED to look at, as well, so I'm off looking for more photo's of current & period 190's to see what I can see.

[Nedum]

Small composite screenshot I've made (see attached).

 

Left side - 190 cockpit with the all-metal A-frame, right side - 190 cockpit with the questionable piece of wood mounted on top of the metal A-frame.

 

The current DCS FW-190 D should be remodeled without the added wooden piece.

 

The A frame is ~15% too thick.

The frame above the head is ~25% too thick.

[VIMANAMAN]

Not very helpful Nedum!

 

I don't think rrohde meant that as a finished example of his work.

 

If you have any interest in this thread, apart from being negative, I could use some help finding period photographs of D9's cockpit structure - specifically from the rear - perhaps you could help?

[rrohde]

@Nedum: The idea is to show how a FW 190 cockpit should be without the wooden piece mounted on the A-frame as it is the case with the DCS 190.

Edited September 7, 2014 by rrohde

[Fox One]

^^^ All pictures you posted are of Fw 190 D-9 W.Nr. 601088 from an US museum, all taken after restoration. In Jerry Crandall's book Fw 190 Dora, vol 1 there are a few very rare colour cockpit pictures of precisely this particular plane, taken before restoration. There is no wood...

 

 

This has been troubling me a tad...

 

Hey Fox any chance you could scan a photo or two for us?

 

 

Here it is. This is the cockpit of precisely the same plane that appears in post #3 in this thread, pictured before restoration. Original handwritten inscriptions are still visible.

 

Some have wondered why they have chosen this plane with the wooden part as a model. Well… they didn’d have much to chose from. This is the only original D-9 remaining on this planet. Except for the canopy, propeller spinner, tires and a few very minor bits, it is completely original. Except for this plane, other D-9 planes documented with cockpit pictures – you can count those other planes on the fingers of one hand. Really.

 

The person who made the cockpit model – he is not a specialist. I can completely understand he believed the wooden part was a real part of the plane. But actually having to try to “demonstrate” the wooden part doesn’t belong there it is really silly. It doesn’t appear in any parts catalogue for any Fw 190 version, technical manuals, manufacture documentation (see post #24) or in any pictures of any 190 of any version other than this particular museum plane. It is not an original part of the plane PERIOD.

[VIMANAMAN]

I have to say I fully agree - I think it's some kind of transport or storage protective thing, and definitely not part of the original aircraft - or it might be as you said previously, a spacer because the canopy doesn't fit properly. Maybe it's the wrong canopy, it had the wrong wings until relatively recently :) as you sound like you'll know already.

 

But yeah I think you're absolutely right.

 

It would be a real shame if this isn't corrected, such a great module as it is.

 

But it is hardly surprising the ED modellers got this wrong - I even found an D9 aircraft (restored / new build using some original components?) where, in my opinion, they've made the same mistake. I've been looking at this all day today and have been preparing a rather long and complicated post...:lol:

Edited September 7, 2014 by VIMANAMAN
words damn them!

[VIMANAMAN]

EDIT - the embedded images have largely crapped out ?? Worked when I tested? Anyway will sort ASAP. for the moment will make do with the links, shame as some very clearly demonstrate the point...

 

Is the D9 canopy A-frame all metal construction or does it have a wooden ‘mating plate’?

 

I decided to (try and) find out for sure - simples - just find another example...

 

We all know there are very few D9's in existence. I thought just two, but apparently there’s supposed to be four, but I found 5, at which point it got a bit interesting… But it does seem there are only two that are pretty much complete & original.

 

I wanted to check them all out, and thought I'd share some of the interesting stuff , I think so anyway :), I found...

 

The first complete one (more or less) -

 

http://daedalus-berlin.de/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dblogsection%26

 

W.Nr 210968 - In the Luftwaffe Museum, Berlin, being restored, after being at the bottom of a (fresh water) lake for 65 odd years. It doesn't help in this matter from what I can see. Great project though! Remarkably well preserved considering, it has paint and all. But if there was wood it would have rotted I guess?

 

[image not working see link] 210968 upon recovery - restoration now quite advanced – if interested see link.

 

 

 

 

The second complete one

 

W.Nr 601088 – On loan to the USAF Museum, from the Smithsonian – the one with the wooden batten / mating plate on the canopy A-frame – which still looks very out of place to me...?

 

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19600319000

 

“Focke-Wulf Fw 190D-9 W.Nr. 601088 was attached to Stab.IV./JG3 at Plenzrau in Northern Germany. At the end of hostilities, this aircraft was surrendered to the RAF at Flensberg. When W.Nr. 601088 was shipped to the United States as a war prize, it was accidentally matched with the wings from a Fw 190D-13 ("Yellow 10", W.Nr. 836017). Although the wings of the D-9 and the D-13 were ostensibly similar, the shell ejector chute arrangement and other significant details were quite different.

 

The Dora arrived at Wright Field around August 1946 and was later transferred to the National Air and Space Museum's facility at Silver Hill in Washington. This aircraft has been on loan to the US Air Force Museum in Dayton Ohio since 1975.” Quote from above website.

 

[image not working see link image 2 - why aren't the images working - this one is important] Late war construction maybe – still finding it hard to believe this was production standard.

 

 

 

 

The following examples don’t help much / at all -

 

W.Nr 990003 - which came out of the modern Flugwerks workshops and described as Fw190D-9/N "12-preto" (WNr.210079) – I’m pretty sure it’s a new build airframe and just painted as 210079. It has an Allison V12 engine (nice, none the less).

 

http://www.pozefilm.de/fw190.html

 

[image not working - despite testing] The best cockpit image of 990003 I can find.

 

 

 

 

This one and the following one are interesting, and confusing, in equal measure -

 

W.Nr 990006 – Also built / re-built by Flugwerks - Painted as? Or, using the remains of… (pretty sure it’s just painted as) Fw190D-9 original “3-branco” (WNr.210102). This has a Jumo 213 engine though.

 

http://www.pozefilm.de/fw190.html

 

Note - Can’t find anything more about this airframe – apart from vague information that it may have become 400616!? Which would explain the lack of info and my confusion over the total numbers of D9’s in existence.

 

[image not working, see link...] Best image I can find!

 

 

 

 

W.Nr 400616 – which appears to have the wooden A- frame plate! I can’t find any decent photos of the cockpit area again! But there’s this short vid… See 30 secs in.

 

 

Sold 7-8-14 – sales info… - ‘’This aircraft has been restored to static condition. FW 190 D9 WNr. 400616, formerly flown by Uffz. Koch of the famous JG 54 “Greenhearts”. This is one out of only two surviving FW 190 D9 worldwide with authentic serial number and battle history. The aircraft even features the original Jumo 213A previously used on this Serial number.” Quote from the sales agent.

 

http://www.sandyair.com/index.php?page=fw-190-d-9-weisse-16

 

A ‘12’O’clock high’ forum contributor – “The fuselage and tail are 100% flugwerk Fw190A series. Most likely part of the wing structure is also Flugwerk. I had photos of this bird …, and can confirm without a doubt that the fuealage and tail are Flugwerk. This is due to errors made by Flugwerk during production, that are common on all models (and seen in the photos). The angle of the antenna mast on the tail, for example. The rest was added (cowling, engine, etc.) to make it look D9. 100% started as a Flugwerk A model.”

 

So obviously very unclear, at best.

 

I can't find decent images of this (apart from see video above).

 

 

 

 

Conclusion - D-9’s existing airframes – from a quick but semi-detailed look at this…

 

There seem to be only two 100% original FW190 D9 examples in existence –

 

W.Nr 210968 - originally in moderately poor shape, recovered from a lake bed. Original A-frame construction unclear, and if there was wood there it may have rotted away.

 

W.Nr 601088 recovered fully intact from the western front in 1945, with the very curious wooden canopy ‘mating plate’.

 

I think these below can be ignored from the A-frame construction point of view -

 

W.Nr 400616 / 990006, the same airframe? The fact that W.Nr 400616, has the same wooden canopy ‘mating plate’, according to the You Tube clip, as 601088 is confusing to say the least. It’s not airworthy and is a little controversial from what I’ve read. I’m not saying it is… but it might be a Flugwerk new build, with some original components used? Whatever the case, it’s certainly been very extensively restored / re-built, whichever. The A-frame construction might accidentally have ended up looking like the only other complete example in existence, because again it was the only reference?

 

W.Nr 990003, which is, I believe is an acknowledged new build – which doesn’t really prove anything.

 

Obviously then that leaves exactly one, good condition, complete & original D9 airframe informing us about the A-frame construction. Far from ideal when you remember that this airframe was re-reassembled after the war, with the wrong wings. Eventually, swapped back in 2001.

 

Some Jumo 'porn' here...:) When they refitted the right wings...

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/fw190d9enginereferencebg_1.htm

 

I think it’s possible that the wooden plate is some kind of ‘shipping lock’ or ‘storage device’. This could easily have become a permanent addition to a static exhibit, after the boffins had finished with it? I’m guessing here obviously.

 

The thing I can’t get around is that the A and F series together with the only remaining D13 were all metal A-frame construction – why would an un-pressurised D9 be any different?

 

 

[image not working - will sort this out as this image is a crystal clear example of all metal construction!!!] Above – Veteran - originally A7 W.Nr 640 069, converted during the war to F8 W.Nr 931 994

 

 

Above – original A3 (or A1) unknown W.Nr.

 

[ATTACH]104029[/ATTACH]

Above – (attachment) Original D13, Yellow 10, W.Nr 836017 (described as essentially in airworthy condition, but not being flown as it’s the only example of it’s type).

 

So we’re back where we started – If we want to be sure whether the wooden mating plate is or isn't part of the aircraft - it just leaves period photography… & plans.

 

 

There’s lots of info saying that this aircraft - Gerhard Barkhorn’s FW190 ‘Cristl’ of JG6, is a D9.

 

http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/Fw-190D/Fw-190D-JG6-(5-+-Barkhorn/pages/5-Luftwaffe-pilot-Major-Gerhard-Barkhorn-03.html

 

http://rafiger.de/Homepage/FBMuseum/Info-JG6/Info-JG6.htm

 

The slender A-frame with the hole / recess, centre top, corresponds very well with the D13 A-frame. I’m pretty confident that this D9 canopy A-frame is the same, or very similar construction to the A/F’s and D13.

 

But I can’t prove it! …yet :D

 

EDIT - the embedded images have largely crapped out ?? Worked when I tested? Anyway will sort ASAP.

Edited September 7, 2014 by VIMANAMAN
The embedded images don't work, despite testing them?

[rrohde]

VIMANAMAN's posts sums the situation up nicely. Now we just need to get the attention of an ED developer to take it further.... How do we do this? :)

[leafer]

He's already got their attention, I'm sure of it. ED read these forums.

[26-J39]

Interesting to say the least...

 

http://airandspace.si.edu/explore-and-learn/multimedia/detail.cfm?id=1646

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by 26-J39

[26-J39]

http://aircraft-cockpits.com/ww2_fw190.htm

 

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2014 by 26-J39

[Nedum]

Not very helpful Nedum!

 

I don't think rrohde meant that as a finished example of his work.

 

If you have any interest in this thread, apart from being negative, I could use some help finding period photographs of D9's cockpit structure - specifically from the rear - perhaps you could help?

 

 

I have not reviewed his work, but gave pointed out that the frames are still too wide.

So what's your point?

Bad sleeping? :dunno:

[Fox One]

VIMANAMAN, great effort. You started this thread being bothered by symmetry in textures, and slowly this turned into a big research project for you. Be careful, or this research might take control of your life :D

 

W.Nr 400616 – which appears to have the wooden A- frame plate! I can’t find any decent photos of the cockpit area again! But there’s this short vid… See 30 secs in.

 

My opinion – they blindly copied W.Nr 601088, including the wooden part :D In the youtube video you can see landing gear indicator wrongly placed where the radio channel selector should be (see post #3), in post #36 you can see the correct placement before the museum guys swapped them. In your link http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19600319000 it looks like they finally placed them in correct position, it took them more than half a century…

 

There’s lots of info saying that this aircraft - Gerhard Barkhorn’s FW190 ‘Cristl’ of JG6, is a D9.

 

There is 100% certitude the aircraft is a D model. See the reinforcing steel strip riveted on the outside of the fuselage below Barkhorn’s left arm – this is one of the airframe changes from A to D. This plane is also equipped with all the goodies - electrically heated windshield, EZ 42...

 

Also in post #42, pictures 2 and 4 are of new built aircraft, so they don’t really concern this research.

[VIMANAMAN]

This site has one of the best photos (series of photos) I've seen so far of an original A/F series machine, clearly with an all metal A-frame - I tried to post one of these previously but it didn't work...?

 

So here's a link - http://www.milavnarc.com/focke-wulf_fw_190_photo_set_1.html#!

 

The only better pictures I've seen of an original machine are of yellow 10, the D13 machine. Yellow 10 would serve as an excellent modelling / texturing reference for the A-frame (IMO). And it's still a D series machine :)

 

But will try to find better info / images.

[VIMANAMAN]

...You started this thread being bothered by symmetry in textures, and slowly this turned into a big research project for you. Be careful, or this research might take control of your life :D

 

And who's fault is that :lol: :thumbup:

 

There is 100% certitude the aircraft is a D model. See the reinforcing steel strip riveted on the outside of the fuselage below Barkhorn’s left arm – this is one of the airframe changes from A to D. This plane is also equipped with all the goodies - electrically heated windshield, EZ 42...

 

This is very encouraging to read - I believed it was a D-9 but never fully trust all stuff online - Nice one :thumbup:

[Fox One]

D-9 pictures ONLY from Jerry Crandall's books. Check A-frame shape and location of the holes in its upper part.

[Fox One]

Yellow 10 would serve as an excellent modelling / texturing reference for the A-frame (IMO). And it's still a D series machine :)

 

 

Fully agree. This should serve as a model:

[Ala13_ManOWar]

... some improved textures for the (what I'm gonna call) the 'lft line' bar, and the 'A' frame texture. ...

If I understand what you call "lft line bar" is the upper one in the canopy center, right? AFAIK that "line" is a hinge indeed,

 

 

 

The thing is as canopy rails in 190 go back they get narrower so canopy needs a centre hinge to bend itself without breaking. The example is from FHC A-5 but I think applies to Dora the same.

 

S!

[VIMANAMAN]

Wow, awesome photos Fox! Those are really clear indeed! THX!!

 

D-9 pictures ONLY from Jerry Crandall's books. Check A-frame shape and location of the holes in its upper part.

 

I think this is proof that the wooden face plate on the canopy A-Frame of the last D9 in complete and original condition, and on display at the USAF museum - is clearly not part of the aircraft!

 

And more importantly (in this case) it doesn't belong on ED's wonderful FW190 D9 module!

 

The canopy A-frame is an all metal construction, with various recesses as seen in the photos above, and on yellow 10, the last remaining D13 airframe.

 

 

Can this be officially reported to ED as a texture / 3d model bug please?

Edited September 8, 2014 by VIMANAMAN