Mission to test your TWS skills

[snomhf]

I put together a simple little mission (attached) with four C130s at 30k about 200NM away from you in an F15 with 8 120s.

 

The trick is to lock all four of them up in TWS and shoot them down in four quick squeezes of the trigger before they get within guns range or at least before they get past you. What's especially hard is you have to wait till they get real close to you because they are bunched so tightly together.

 

I have not been able to do it (cause I'm just a stinkin' noob) but I'm hoping you pros can and will describe to me how you do it.

 

Enjoy and good luck!

 

-mark

[snomhf]

The only way I've been able to do this is to pass through them then come in behind from about 20nm and slow down so that I have enough time to zoom in on the scope. That slows the closure rate down enough that I have time for all the zooming and moving of the TDC.

[Cosmonaut]

Hi snomhf,

 

First; I wouldn’t call my self a Pro with the Eagle hehe ;) but I did it three times with exactly the same results.

 

How I did it?.. Well not much to say really other than I used TWS to lock them up and even though I could fire at 22nm I chose to fire a couple of seconds later at around 18nm ..

 

Here’s a track I made of your mission… I also accelerated the sim, during the ingress, to make the track file shorter.

F15 TWS Test.zip

[snomhf]

Wow!

I may never see IL2 or Falcon4 again!

 

Thank you sincerely Cosmo!! If you were local, you'd have a sixpack of your favorite sitting at your doorstep by now!

 

I have to admit that it took me two tries after watching your track but I can do it EVERYTIME now!

 

Just in case you're interested, I was making four big mistakes:

 

1. I was locking the target immediately when they first popped up (at 120nm). I don't know why I thought I should do that but it certainly makes it harder to see the other three after selecting the first one.

 

2. I wasn't being careful with my antenna pitch and was letting them fly outside the cone. That was the mistake I made the first time after watching your track. The second time, I was careful to keep them within say 8-42 so they would not fall out of the cone. That concept feels real strange to me for some reason. I'm catching on now.

 

3. I was hesitant to zoom all the way in on the scope. For some reason. I thought I needed to keep the hud in view while locking them up so I couldn't see what I was doing very well. As soon as I saw you zoom all the way in like that, it was... DUH! Amazing how dumb you can be sometimes!

 

4. I see you wait for TWS to get the next lock between firings. I was just firing four times rapidly. I didn't realize that I only had a couple of them locked at that point because the other two had broken lock. Waiting for the TD to pop to the next target assures me that I indeed have them locked. If not, I can go back and lock them again before it's too late.

 

When I first started studying TWS, I was excited to try it but got so frustrated because my targets kept breaking the lock (because they would fly out of the cone), I didn't understand why that was happening and got to where I didn't care about TWS. Now I'm loving it! All I want to do is TWS! Hee hee!

 

I hope I can help some else as much as you've helped me. S!

 

-mark

[33 309th_Hedgehog]

Thanks for your debriefing.

[Cosmonaut]

TWS can be a little tricky but once you establish a good routine then things become second nature.

 

Regarding number 4; Yeah I always wait for the next target to be confirmed before I fire, that way you wont be firing on the same target twice. I imagine that real pilots would do the same thing rather than just go trigger happy with a self guiding rocket propelled explosive device ;) . Although on my second attempt I wanted to see for myself what would happen if I just rapidly fired four missiles and I had the same result.. which was four shots four hits.

 

I edited your mission and turned the temperature up a little by replacing the C130’s with two Su27s set to excellent. Here’s a track; The trick is to evade the first 27ER, which isn’t all that difficult, then you’re free to smoke the two Su27s.

TWSv2XSu27s.zip

[snomhf]

Thank you Cosmo for the track. This is a great way to learn. Unfortunately, it is making me realize that I have a LOT yet to learn.

 

I have done the mission about five times now. The first time was a disaster. They shot me down while I was fooling around locking them up. The other times I got them locked fine and even got within Rpi and launched on both of them. (Note, I can't imagine being able to go all the way to Rtr. You didn't either) I noticed you "sort of" ignore the lock/launch tone before Rpi so I did too. Before, I was panicking and ended up losing the lock. However, I'm realizing that I can't tell when they actually launch. The low pulsing tone, is that LOCK or LAUNCH? Anyway, I was able to evade by turning beam as much as possible with AB while keeping the dot in the circle. It seems like a crap shoot that I get hit or I don't get hit. Actually, those last two times I splashed them both but I feel like I'm just "memorizing" and getting lucky. I'm just guessing where the missile is or if there is even one on the way.

 

If possible, can you give me a debrief and discuss LOCK vrs Launch. I keep watching your track over and over but I can't tell when you know to start evading.

 

Thanks. This is really helpful

-mark

 

 

Edit: Paying more attention to the TEWS sounds. The slow "ticking" is the initial painting. The "faster ticking" is a LOCK (right?) The lower frequecy pulsing tone (different from the initial appearance tone) is the LAUNCH (right?) If that's true, there are about six missiles launched altogether (didn't count them, just guessing). I'm getting shot down about as often as I win. Since I have to launch at Rpi, my missiles are missing about half the time. Again, I feel I'm just lucky when I hit.

[Cosmonaut]

Ah Ok I think I see what you’re doing.

 

First use the mission I have posted here, it’s the same thing but with only one Su27 (There are less aggressive techniques for this). When you’re comfortable and confident shooting him down then add another Su27 and see how you get on.

I’ll try to give you a description of what I was doing in the second track I posted;

 

The other times I got them locked fine and even got within Rpi and launched on both of them. (Note, I can't imagine being able to go all the way to Rtr. You didn't either)

 

That’s right .. you never try to get within Rtr before firing your first shots for two reasons; 1. You become a none maneuvering target increasing the enemies PK for their first Rmax shot. 2. The enemy will never go defensive and will just continuously fire at you until he runs out of missiles or you’re shot down. The idea is to use the first one or two shots to force your opponent to go defensive which will allow you to close enough for an Rtr shot. So you fire at max range then when the enemy turns away to evade your missile you move a little closer and fire a second shot. If everything goes your way then you might not need a third shot but normally a bandit will get fired on from me once I step inside 10nm from the enemy aircraft, regardless of whether I think my previously fired missile will hit him or not. And I did get within Rtr I just chose to save my missiles and enjoy the fire works ;)

 

I noticed you "sort of" ignore the lock/launch tone before Rpi so I did too. Before, I was panicking and ended up losing the lock.

 

Don’t see that as ignoring the lock or launch! Not at all.. not even a little bit! From the power of the radar and the indication on TEWS that there were no active threats (arh) fired at me then this clears me for certain maneuvers.. and evasion techniques. I knew that I had enough time to fire at max range then break for an evasion before the first sarh missile could hit me.

 

In the track I posted I only had to make one evasion.. remember an sarh missile wont hit you if the enemy looses lock. .. So I forced both bandits to go defensive which means they can’t keep their fighters pointing in my direction. Then I keep an eye on their direction of flight with the VSD and TEWS, notice when I get close if they look/sound (tews warning) like a threat I jink left to make sure they cant launch or keep me locked up.

 

I can't tell when you know to start evading.

 

Neither can I lol .. well I know I have enough time to fire at max range then I immediately start my evasion. I just basically put my aircraft in a position that will make it very difficult for a missile fired at Rmax to hit me; I loose altitude increasing my speed then fly a gentle arc pulling up and into the direction the missile was fired from.

 

Paying more attention to the TEWS sounds. The slow "ticking" is the initial painting. The "faster ticking" is a LOCK (right?)

 

Yeah I think that’s correct. I’m not an expert with the F15 so go to page 182 in the manual to make sure.

 

The lower frequecy pulsing tone (different from the initial appearance tone) is the LAUNCH (right?) If that's true, there are about six missiles launched altogether (didn't count them, just guessing).

 

Hehe I think I remember this. There were only two missiles fire at me but the launch tone repeats itself every so many seconds .. 10 secs or 15?? Some where around there anyway

 

I'm getting shot down about as often as I win. Since I have to launch at Rpi, my missiles are missing about half the time. Again, I feel I'm just lucky when I hit.

 

It’s your second or third shot that's going to get the kill .. just make sure you keep them defensive until you hit them.

tws V Su27s.zip

[snomhf]

Thank you so much Cosmo! You are a tremendous help.

 

You're certainly right. I have not thought at all about causing them to go defensive by my "wasting" a missile. That sort of thinking has helped me a lot. I'm succeeding now in getting him/them turned around and running from me. That's a big improvement. I'm still not doing very well at evading their missiles but I'm close to getting it I think.

 

A couple of questions if you don't mind...

 

1. After I fire my first shots (Rpi), should I be trying to hold lock while I make my break turn? A few times when I was successful was when I would just break real hard and lose the lock then swing around and pick them back up again. Course, most of the time, they'd just fire at me again as I did them leaving me in a bad situation. Other times, it was hard to pick them back up on radar. I was able to evade their shots that way however. Actually, this part of the strategy is where I have my most trouble.

 

2. Is there any indication when the AIM120 goes active? It seemed I had read that the count down timer would change from "T" to "M" or something like that but it certainly doesn't do that now.

 

3. Do you know why the SDT will break lock for no apparent reason? He's not doing anything evasive but will suddenly just disappear from the scope. I have to wait for him to magically reappear then go and reacquire him. This happens a lot. I haven't seen a pattern to it yet. Just a little strange oddity there.

 

4. I was playing around with the "single" nmy version you made. I decided to try to go up against an R-77 to see what it was like to face an "AIM120". I chose a Mig29S with a loadout of just R-77s. What a let down. The guy turns on his jammer right away so I bug one of the boxes and just fly toward the TD. I turn my jammer on too so he can't shoot at me through his veil. When I burn through, I find him on the run and it's a trivial kill. A couple of times, I used my guns just for fun. [Dogfighting is something I can do.] My question on all this is, what is the strategy for using the jammer? It certainly worked against him. It seems to me to be a big ole target!

 

Thanks again for all this help and for the tracks. A couple of adjustments I've made to my graphics (1024X768 --> 1280X1024) and setting my preload cache to maximum (since I have 1.5GB mem) have helped me be able to see better.

 

When I can kill both these bandits reliably, I'll post a track.

 

S!

-mark

[Cosmonaut]

1. After I fire my first shots (Rpi), should I be trying to hold lock while I make my break turn?

 

Here’s a motto that us Sukhoi pilots live by ;) ;

Hold your lock like a man :D

 

Lol just kidding.. the answer to your question is; What ever will get you the kill with minimum risk to yourself. As long as your 120 has gone active then you are free to use what ever tactics suites the situation you’re in.. that’s one of the benefits of arh and the cherry on the cake is tws. I’ve seen tracks where some Eagle drivers fire, turn 180 then turn back in relocking and firing again. I predominantly fly the Su33 which means all I have to offer an enemy fighter when engaging BVR is an sarh missile .. so I’m well practiced at keeping the target locked up while puling pretty extreme evasive maneuvers. In the situation with the two Su27s I was surprised that I could maintain lock on both the primary and secondary targets 4 out of the five times I flew the mission. On the one time I lost lock on the secondary target it wasn’t a big deal because the 120 had gone active keeping him defensive so I was able to relock and fire with the same outcome as the track I posted.

 

2. Is there any indication when the AIM120 goes active? It seemed I had read that the count down timer would change from "T" to "M" or something like that but it certainly doesn't do that now.

 

I think the flashing M on the left counts down the time to active but you better check the manual to make sure. I have found that the 120 will go active a good few seconds before the avionics tell you it has or I could be misunderstanding the information on the HUD.

 

3. Do you know why the SDT will break lock for no apparent reason? He's not doing anything evasive but will suddenly just disappear from the scope. I have to wait for him to magically reappear then go and reacquire him. This happens a lot. I haven't seen a pattern to it yet. Just a little strange oddity there.

 

Could be a number of things; Maybe he’s notching your radar, flying outside your radar cone etc.. the thing to remember is not to panic and just scan around if he doesn’t reappear soon.

 

4. I was playing around with the "single" nmy version you made. I decided to try to go up against an R-77 to see what it was like to face an "AIM120". I chose a Mig29S with a loadout of just R-77s. What a let down. The guy turns on his jammer right away so I bug one of the boxes and just fly toward the TD. I turn my jammer on too so he can't shoot at me through his veil. When I burn through, I find him on the run and it's a trivial kill. A couple of times, I used my guns just for fun. [Dogfighting is something I can do.] My question on all this is, what is the strategy for using the jammer? It certainly worked against him. It seems to me to be a big ole target!

 

Hmm sounds like he ran out of fuel .. Set that engagement up using the FBP and watch what happens ;) Remember you will be able to see the progression of the R77 coming at you in the TEWS. Also set the engagement up to occur at different altitudes and distances. Oh and once you’ve burned through your ECM is now pretty much working against you so turn it off. HOJ shots are quite sneaky because you get belated warning that a missile has been fired at you .. Experiment with engaging targets with your ECM on and off to get a feel for how it affects your situational awareness.

[snomhf]

Cosmo,

Whew! I've spent the last three hours solid flying these missions. I'm catching on some I think but the progress is much slower than I would have hoped. My missile evasion is still pretty lousy. The last half hour though were better. I decided to switch to aim7s so it will force me to hold the lock. That seems like a skill I really need to learn and I'm afraid the 120 is teaching me bad habits. Thoughts on that?

 

Actually, by switching to RWS, I've realized that I am able to "scare" him better with my Rpi shots because he gets a warning sooner than with TWS. Does that make sense? It seems that way anyway. He definitely behaves differently that's for sure.

 

I made a track of one of my better fights but I'm not going to bore you with it. Maybe I'll just describe part of it (the difficult part) and perhaps you can comment on it.

 

Once I launch Rpi, I effectively end up doing a big barrel roll. It starts with an AB break turn to the side the seems to give me the best chance of getting behind him. I dive as much as I can while turning while staying inside the lock. Then I roll around the other way and climb while rolling with lots of g (almost blacking out). This tends to give me closure and I fire off another missile which really gets him to turn away. That works real good I've found. The problem right here is the probability of his first shot getting me is pretty darn high. I'm dropping chaff like crazy and trying to pull real hard. It's about 60-40 that I am successful. Pretty disappointing really. If I make it through that part, he's dead meat as I get him easily though he is way faster than me so I have to shoot soon because he is great at outrunning me. That part is great fun as I get overspeed warnings, etc. and we're right off the deck. Wow!

 

A couple of random questions for you:

1. If he has launched two or three missiles and splashes while they are in flight, what are the chances that I can get hit by one of them? It seems like that happens but I'm not really sure.

 

2. Should I make any effort to actually see a missile that is coming at me? I think I've read that it is a waste of time and actually dangerous to do so. My big problem is though, I have NO IDEA where that darn thing is! I'm thinking I need to start doing some timing calculations and use a stop watch to help me know the ETA on those things. That would definitely be better than my bobbing and weaving at something that may not even be there.

 

3. If my theory about RWS being a better defensive strategy than TWS, does it make sense to use that against a single target than TWS?

 

If you're getting tired of me and my questions just say so. I don't want to wear out my welcome here. Your help is been great and I do appreciate it.

 

-mark

[Prophet_169th]

Actually, by switching to RWS, I've realized that I am able to "scare" him better with my Rpi shots because he gets a warning sooner than with TWS. Does that make sense? It seems that way anyway. He definitely behaves differently that's for sure.

[/Quote]

 

If your intent is to force him defensive, it is much better to do it from RWS than TWS for the reason you have seen. The bandit doesnt get a launch warning from an AIM-120 fired from TWS until the missile has gone active. In the case you pull split S, then its whenever you lose lock. I am not sure about AI, but for human pilots this is much more effective to force a defensive posture.

 

Once I launch Rpi, I effectively end up doing a big barrel roll. It starts with an AB break turn to the side the seems to give me the best chance of getting behind him. I dive as much as I can while turning while staying inside the lock. Then I roll around the other way and climb while rolling with lots of g (almost blacking out). This tends to give me closure and I fire off another missile which really gets him to turn away. That works real good I've found. The problem right here is the probability of his first shot getting me is pretty darn high. I'm dropping chaff like crazy and trying to pull real hard. It's about 60-40 that I am successful. Pretty disappointing really. If I make it through that part, he's dead meat as I get him easily though he is way faster than me so I have to shoot soon because he is great at outrunning me. That part is great fun as I get overspeed warnings, etc. and we're right off the deck. Wow!

 

Before you fire, fly at AB. This increases the speed that the missile starts from, this effectively increases the distance the missile will travel, and the speed it will be at impact.

 

After you fire, you should be breaking, and decending. If you fly at AB, you are decreasing the distance the missile has to travel to you. Try to learn the timing of the missiles to you. How long does the ER launched from Rmax take to get to you. While decending, you then decide based on how close you think the missile is to you, to ascend, and accelerate. Hopefully at this time, the missile has a lot less energy, and as you accelerate and ascend, the missile doesnt have the energy to keep up.

 

2. Should I make any effort to actually see a missile that is coming at me? I think I've read that it is a waste of time and actually dangerous to do so. My big problem is though, I have NO IDEA where that darn thing is! I'm thinking I need to start doing some timing calculations and use a stop watch to help me know the ETA on those things. That would definitely be better than my bobbing and weaving at something that may not even be there.

[/Quote]

 

Yes, your best chance for surviving a missile, is know where it is relative to you, and its speed relative to you.

 

3. If my theory about RWS being a better defensive strategy than TWS, does it make sense to use that against a single target than TWS?

 

That depends. For a first shot, if your intent is to force them defensive.

But if you pick them up closer, if you lock them in TWS and fire a 120, they have less warning. They only get a slightly faster tone from the RWR, than if you didnt have them locked. They have no idea that they are locked, let alone a missile is coming.

[Twitch]

I suggest that you should fly with labels on Snomhf, your situational awareness is much better and you get to actually see how many missiles are shot at you and their travel time is easy to understand. Also you get to practice your evasion maneuvers better when you see the missile coming at you.

[snomhf]

Thanks for all the advice. Good idea about turning on labels. I tend to resist all that sort of thing as I don't want to develop bad habits but using labels at least part of the time will certainly help me learn how the missile is behaving.

 

I'm really amazed how much fun this all is. I am a ww2 prophead from way back. In fact, I used to think missiles were for sissies. :) I bought Falcon4 when it first came out but never got serious with it at all. I would set up little guns-only missions and just dogfight. I'm a real "fish out of water" with this missile stuff but the juices are beginning to flow. Watch out! Hee hee!

 

I wish someone would put together some good tutorials that cover what we've dealt with here in this thread. I've searched through the stuff Ironhand has done and though his tutorials are very good, I haven't seen anything that deals with the stuff we've talked about here, at least not to this level of detail. On the other hand, a guy could just read this thread, pick up the tracks and practice with them, and learn a great deal. Maybe this is the way to do it rather than have tutorials.

[Kula66]

Also try recording tracks (especially on-line ) and then play back with labels on ... see what the high scoring pilots do :)

[Cosmonaut]

Cosmo,

Whew! I've spent the last three hours solid flying these

missions. I'm catching on some I think but the progress is

much slower than I would have hoped. My missile evasion is

still pretty lousy.

 

We all went through the same thing with missile evasion ..spending hours learning to evade amraam’s, 27ER’s etc.. it takes time but it feels great when you can put everything you’ve learnt into practice, while flying a mission and achieve mission success.

 

The last half hour though were better. I

decided to switch to aim7s so it will force me to hold the lock.

That seems like a skill I really need to learn and I'm afraid the

120 is teaching me bad habits. Thoughts on that?

 

Learning to use the aim7 is a skill you need to know however the aim120 wont give you any bad habits. SARH requires slightly different tactics than ARH but you need to learn how to exploit both types of missiles to their full potential.

 

1. If he has launched two or three missiles and splashes while

they are in flight, what are the chances that I can get hit by

one of them? It seems like that happens but I'm not really

sure.

 

If its an SARH missile then the only way it will hit you, after the radar source has been lost, is if you’re unlucky enough to fly into it ;) . If its an active missile then it most likely will continue to track you so keep an eye/ears aware of active threats homing in on you. Heaters (IR) will also track you with the added complication that you get no systems warning .. but if you’re that close then you will see the smoke trail so you can take the appropriate action.

 

2. Should I make any effort to actually see a missile that is

coming at me? I think I've read that it is a waste of time and

actually dangerous to do so. My big problem is though, I have

NO IDEA where that darn thing is! I'm thinking I need to start

doing some timing calculations and use a stop watch to help

me know the ETA on those things. That would definitely be

better than my bobbing and weaving at something that may

not even be there.

 

You’re never going to see a missile fired at you BVR until its so close that its too late… That’s if you see it at all! .. Actually I do see about three out of ten (maybe less) BVR shots but that’s at the last split second as it makes its final turn and I have already set my plane up for the evasion but I haven’t relied on a visual cue to perform the evasion… You know the direction the missile was fired because its coming from the enemy fighter so as long as you use speed, direction and counter measures appropriately then you will increase your chance for a successful evasion.

 

When you’re close up in a CAC situation then all you have are your eyes for missile detection .. so never loose sight of the enemy and always look out for smoke trails coming from the fighter your engaging.

 

3. If my theory about RWS being a better defensive strategy

than TWS, does it make sense to use that against a single

target than TWS?

 

Just adding to what Prophet_169th said; What you’re trying to do is build up a tactical bank account which will allow you to employ various strategies.. STT instead of TWS to force a defensive position may work better .. try it and see. I have only done limited tests and it seemed to have the same results as tws in terms of I still had to perform one evasion but I did notice that the enemy fighter evaded my second shot more often when fired STT.

 

If you're getting tired of me and my questions just say so. I

don't want to wear out my welcome here. Your help is been

great and I do appreciate it.

-mark

 

Not at all .. this is what we do here.. well this and bitch about flight models, weapon systems and StarForce ;) lol

[JimMack]

Hi Cosmo,

 

Your track file of F15v2Su27 is very helpful. If you provide an explanatory voice-over I'm sure Ironhand would put it on his site.

 

Jim

[snomhf]

I second that!

 

Cosmo, I've been meaning to ask you. Are you using TIR? I have never been interested in that as it seemed like it would make me dizzy (I'm already pretty dizzy :)) However, I've read enough positive posts about it and the videos on TIR4 etc. look awfully good. I'm considering springing for it.

 

Just wondering.

[Rhen]

TIR is a must for LOMAC. There's no other way to check things out because you have to zoom into the cockpit gauges to read them (fuel), etc. Also, since you're a gunzo type of person, you'll appreciate the advantage it gives you in quickly searching different areas of the sky. With regard to missiles, fighter pilots spend a lot of time in the vault studying the adversary. They know the ranges of weps, and the capabilities of their threats.

 

There are many tactics developed to defeat a missile, the most common is to make the missile expend all its energy trying to stay with you. Think of it this way, you're in a dogfight now with a missile. You've got to make the missile do it's best BFM to formulate and fly a collision course with you. so make the missile expend it's energy, but be ready with the "last ditch" maneuver - the orthogonal roll - putting the missile on your beam and your lift vector perpendicular to the missile's flight path & pull into the missile, in an attempt to make it overshoot. Be aware - when the missile overshoots, it will explode (at least IRL) and you could have some part of your aircraft in its cone/sphere of shrapnel.

 

Let's take lomac as an example using the generic Slammer. At mach 4 it's going 40 nm/min. you're closure with a bandit is going to be around 18 nm/min (assuming you and your bandit are intercepting each other at around corner velocity). If you have a launch at 20 nm (best case long-shot), the time to travel is about 20 sec (give a take a fraction). The "last ditch" maneuver should be performed in the last 5 seconds of missile flight (which is easier to see for a SAM since it looks like a telephone pole coming at you), but near impossible to see an A/A missile, as it's still anywhere from 3-5nm away from you (can you see a fencepost pointing at you from that distance? Neither can I). So somewhere around 15sec you should be doing your last ditch maneuver to defeat the missile.

 

Mind you, this is all predicated on a 20nm shot or a shot pretty darn near Rmax. The best thing to do is make the bandit go defensive first with the first missile, and while he's doing his best missile defense - and getting slower and lower, shoot again after you see his aspect begin to change and he's trying to put his nose back on you. But don't forget, you might also have to do your best missile defense back (it's only fair since he showed you his, you might have to show him yours!).

[Cosmonaut]

I think Ironhand's tracks are much better than anything I could produce, I’ve been watching his tracks since Flanker and I’ve always been impressed by how perfect he fly’s.. I can only imagine the amount of time and patience it must take to produce a training track of that quality.

 

Cosmo, I've been meaning to ask you. Are you using TIR? I have never been interested in that as it seemed like it would make me dizzy (I'm already pretty dizzy :)) However, I've read enough positive posts about it and the videos on TIR4 etc. look awfully good. I'm considering springing for it.

 

Just wondering.

 

Nope.. I use the mouse in my left hand to look around and the mouse wheel to zoom in and out (left button = chaff, right button = chaff and flares)… I’ve been doing this for a number of years now, since IL2 (the original) and I don’t think I could get use to TIR although I am very impressed by the whole 6DOF thing, looks very impressive. Apart from that I’ve never seen a track that demonstrates a better SA than I have .. but I must say that I’ve never heard anyone with TIR say anything other than “it’s a must have”,.. so if you can get one then give it a try. I doubt you’d be disappointed and you’ll probably be wondering how you ever got on with out it.

[snomhf]

Thing is, I feel as you do about my viewing system. I have been using a hat and zoom buttons on my throttle for viewing for 10 years or better. I was in Aces High when TIR first took hold and lots of guys were using it, loving it. I just never thought it would work for me. From watching your track and the TIR videos, it didn't look like you were TIR.

 

I know everyone's telling me to do it but it's a couple hundred dollar experiment. I'm really thinking hard about doing it though. It just seems like having to hold my head still all the time and moving it in such a controlled way would be a real pain. I hate wearing hats too so that goofy piece of coathanger wire stuck on my head is not very appealing.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

BTW, I'm consistently killing the single bandit now. The double not so good. My SA is much better though. I'm probably killing the doubles 2 out of 10 at this point. I'm playing around with locking them both up with TWS for first shot versus waiting till Rpi, going RWS, launching to each separately then going to TWS for the next shot. Idea there is I thought it would cause them to go defensive quicker but it hasn't seemed to. I'm back to the original plan now (like your track). I've also played around with clicking on the jammer at various points but it hasn't seemed to make any difference so I've given up on that at least for now. The SDT seems to notch me and I lose track of him a lot then he'll get me. Sometimes I just go RWS and hunt them down seperately after that happens and with lots of breaking and circleling, I get lucky. I hate getting lucky though. I want to get the kills because I've maneuvered well and gotten in the right situation. I get frustrated about it but then realize how far I've come just in the last few days. I'm trying hard to keep an even temperment about this. My fist is still aching from slamming it down on the desk. :)

 

I haven't had this much fun since I started winning dogfights regularly in Aces High.

[Prophet_169th]

You can adjust the curve to TIR just like another axis, and the dead zone. I have the reset center and disable keys mapped to the cougar. Can hold the view still whenever it needs to be.

 

There some furballs I have gotten into that have had my heart really pounding. Most of the time its when I am on comms and have a few squadmates with me. Hearing what they are dealing with, along with what I am dealing with is awsome. There so much to think about.

[snomhf]

There some furballs I have gotten into that have had my heart really pounding. Most of the time its when I am on comms and have a few squadmates with me. Hearing what they are dealing with, along with what I am dealing with is awsome. There so much to think about.

Prophet,

I have not yet tried lomac online. I want to get my legs first. Actually, I've done online, been in sqads, etc. for so many years that I am sorta enjoying just playing around at my leisure offline. I'm sure I'll do that at some point as this is a really fun game.

 

So, as with il2, hyperlobby seems to be the ticket, right? I suppose, like il2, everyone uses different things for vox (mostly teamspeak I would guess.) When vox first got started in the late 90s, I was playing Red Baron 3D at the time and a lot of us were using RogerWilco. I'm not sure but I think RW was the first of its kind. It was really buggy and many guys gave up on it. Later, with Aces High, they decided to build vox into the game. To me, that was one of the best things to come along in mmog. That meant, EVERYONE can at least hear pilot chatter even if they themselves don't have a mic because it was built into the game. If you could hear anything at all, you could hear vox. I haven't checked out OL for lomac yet but I'm expecting it to be similar to il2 on hyperlobby. Fair?

 

I definitely want to try OL at some point. I want to get competent with modern jet tactics first though I think.

 

Thoughts on all this?

[snomhf]

Whoo Hoo!

I'm killing the two 27s regularly now! This is great! My SA is much better and I'm not just guessing. I am now able to evade while maintaining both locks (barrel rolling) and in many cases, I'm able to cause them to turn early enough to allow my first missles to get them (two launches, two kills!!). In most cases, I fire a second set and that usually gets them on the run and I simply follow them allowing either the first or second set to get them.

 

Many thanks especially to Cosmo who really stuck with me on this. Thanks to all the others too who offered advice.

 

I've attached a track of one of my successes just in case anyone's bored enough to watch it (sorta like watching someone else's family videos I guess :)). Comments and especially criticisms are most welcome.

 

Thanks again!!

-mark

[capttrob]

Hi snomf,

 

You and I seem to be in the same exact boat. Thanks for starting this thread. Its filling in alot of cracks in my training. I been flying LO-FC for a little over a week and been flying on HL regularly. Its good to see you're enjoying it and coming along, but i think you're ready for The Big Show. Come join us on HL! You definitely have more experience than some others that are still trying to figure out the difference between a dot and rectangle...lol (i shouldnt laugh, i was one of them). The 169th server seems popular while a few others add to variety. It will be nice to have a good F-15C driver on my wing. I'll be your wingman anytime...

 

You'll find me as _54th_capttrob. The 54th is mostly an IL2 squad, but im going to try and pull some over to LO-FC.. :-)

 

I forgot to ask, and maybe i missed it, but do you have FC 1.12a installed? That is mostly what we fly on HL...

 

edit: And yes... TIR4 is a must in this game, especially online. Although, I never use the TIR disable feature. I designed my own profile with some dead space in the middle that works well if i hit the sensitivity TIR key, but i rarely use it for a steady shot. When i move mud with the GAU-8, i just lean forward and all is well. Very impressive tool. There are times i wish i had 6DOF on the F-15 or Hog when a target gets hidden behind the canopy frame, but a kick of the rudder is a decent substitute.... :-)